Alternative? Morph

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

Yes, that's what I assumed you meant and why I used capitals for the Pathetic Human as being separate from the standard Human racial template.

Which was an error on your part as I repeatedly stated Pathetic Human is not a separate Racial Template, and why I began referring to him as Mr. 7. Mr. 7 is simply a low functioning but normal human except he has the Morph Advantage. That is why I stressed that these were personal Attribute modifiers.

Do you understand that now?

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I still think the trade-off is a zero point feature. I haven't seen any examples that convince me otherwise.

You have seen an example, you just didn't understand it. ;) Maybe that was my fault. Is is because (and I just realized this) GURPS double dips with the term "Modifier". Enhancements and Limitations are collectively known as "Modifiers", but the values included in Racial Templates may also be referred to similarly e.g. Attribute Modifier, as is the value by which a character's Attribute varies from the norm ("personal Attribute Modifier").

The entire point of Mr. 7 is that under RAW, your personal Attribute Modifiers will affect the form you Morph into but under your suggested alternative, they do not, instead being replaced with values of the typical example of the Race into which you have Morphed.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

If we had a racial template Pathetic Human that does ST-3,DX-3,IQ-3,HT-3, it would work mathematically exactly like standard Morph. Pathetic Humans can not change into regular Humans, unless they have very big Morph pool.
Like I said before, Mr. 7 would need Morph[100]+Morph pool[98] just to turn into a House Cat[-82]. He would need 280 points in Morph to turn into a typical Human.

See here is exactly where a GM would have to heavily police this.

Morph +180 pool, + pathetic human race is basically NEVER going to return to his/her pathetic human race template. At the very least they will use their 180 points to turn into a normal human.

For no actual disadvantage (IE they will never feel the effects of being -3 to all stats because they never stay in their default form) they have an extra 180 points to play with for turning into other things, like a polar bear when they need physical strength, a cheetah when its time to be fast, an octopus when dexterity is required, a dragon when its time to bring down the firepower, etc.

Since they have no requirement to spend time in their weak useless form, there is no incentive to do so, and they gained 180 points to real benifit, for no real disadvantage.

At the very least if I were to approve such a thing I would assure that the player is going to spend some time in their 'normal' form, perhaps by saying that they have to take the morph advantage with a takes recharge, backlash, or uncontrollable modifier with no option to buy it off. I would want them to have to spend some time 'living with' their 'real' self.

I think that's what Otaku is trying to hammer down so hard and is so concerned about (admittedly you can still dodge this by taking improvised forms, and then you can turn into 'myself, but with an extra 20 points in ST', but the barrier for entry in terms of point cost for improvised forms tends to help balance it out).

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by starslayer

See here is exactly where a GM would have to heavily police this.

Morph +180 pool, + pathetic human race is basically NEVER going to return to his/her pathetic human race template. At the very least they will use their 180 points to turn into a normal human.

For no actual disadvantage (IE they will never feel the effects of being -3 to all stats because they never stay in their default form) they have an extra 180 points to play with for turning into other things, like a polar bear when they need physical strength, a cheetah when its time to be fast, an octopus when dexterity is required, a dragon when its time to bring down the firepower, etc.

Since they have no requirement to spend time in their weak useless form, there is no incentive to do so, and they gained 180 points to real benifit, for no real disadvantage.

At the very least if I were to approve such a thing I would assure that the player is going to spend some time in their 'normal' form, perhaps by saying that they have to take the morph advantage with a takes recharge, backlash, or uncontrollable modifier with no option to buy it off. I would want them to have to spend some time 'living with' their 'real' self.

There would be no difference between Mr. 7 with Morph+180pool, who spends his time as a ST 10, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10 Human, or Mr. 10, a ST 10, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10 Human, with Morph without a pool, spending all his time as himself, except that Mr. 7 can be forced out of his Morph, for example if he's sleeping or knocked unconscious.

Using the alternate morph Mr. 7 with Morph+180 can turn into exactly the same creatures as Mr. 10 with Morph+0, I would think that Mr. 10 has the better deal there as he can be Mr. 10 all the time, while Mr. 7 can be forced into a weaker option.

Originally Posted by starslayer

I think that's what Otaku is trying to hammer down so hard and is so concerned about (admittedly you can still dodge this by taking improvised forms, and then you can turn into 'myself, but with an extra 20 points in ST', but the barrier for entry in terms of point cost for improvised forms tends to help balance it out).

With Improvized Forms I don't think anything changes.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Which was an error on your part as I repeatedly stated Pathetic Human is not a separate Racial Template, and why I began referring to him as Mr. 7. Mr. 7 is simply a low functioning but normal human except he has the Morph Advantage. That is why I stressed that these were personal Attribute modifiers.

Do you understand that now?

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you. I thought your Mr.7 "pathetic human" was an example within the context of what you meant with the quote below:

Originally Posted by Otaku

When I mentioned other Human Racial Templates, I was thinking of settings where there is more than one kind of human; for example sci-fi settings where there may be genetically engineered sub-human species distinct enough to qualify for a GURPS Racial Template.

Originally Posted by Otaku

You have seen an example, you just didn't understand it. ;) Maybe that was my fault. Is is because (and I just realized this) GURPS double dips with the term "Modifier". Enhancements and Limitations are collectively known as "Modifiers", but the values included in Racial Templates may also be referred to similarly e.g. Attribute Modifier, as is the value by which a character's Attribute varies from the norm ("personal Attribute Modifier").

The entire point of Mr. 7 is that under RAW, your personal Attribute Modifiers will affect the form you Morph into but under your suggested alternative, they do not, instead being replaced with values of the typical example of the Race into which you have Morphed.

But instead, to prevent free points, they limit what you can Morph into.

Your Mr. 7, using Alternate Morph, independent of if he's a pathetic Human, or a Pathetic Human, will not be able to turn into a typical Human, unless he invests in a 180 point Morph pool. Without a Morph pool, his Morph will be all but useless, as he might just about be able to turn into a mosquito* [-280]. He can not turn into typical House Cat [-82] or any other racial template worth more than -180 points.

*) I calculate a mosquito to be about -280 points.

[Otaku]

I think things are getting confused again.

The big difference between Mr. 7 and Mr. 10 under the proposed alternate rules is that Mr. 7 will be just as "good" post assuming another form with Morph as is Mr. 10 but will cost 180 points less. Yes Mr. 7 will experience some inconvenience for his true form being rather underwhelming, but he only assumes that form when forced to.