Mind Control Question

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Parabola

I watched the "Jessica Jones" series recently with Kilgrave. Granted he's sort of in the unstoppable mind control category that just doesn't work in a game. Until Jessica, it's as if nobody ever ever rolled a critical success or he ever fumbled (in game terms, of course). That's fine for a story but it doesn't work in a game.

Agreed. It does seem to be fairly absolute. However, there is a way to get that sort of control if you've got the points for it.

Originally Posted by Parabola

But it got me to looking at the new (4e) version of Mind Control. Now, I really haven't gamed since the 4e stuff came out so I've read it but haven't explored it in detail. However, the impression I get is that Mind Control in the new rules is, well, pretty useless. What I mean is that, reading the advantage, it is basically the Mind Controller rolling his IQ versus the Will (IQ + Will) of the target. It would seem that, in most situations against another player or significant NPC, the Mind Controller is going to have way less than a 50-50 chance of having any effect. In my experience, players like to have resistance to things like mind control and it's far cheaper than buying IQ. Plus you've got the rule of 20 though people can still buy Mind Shield.

The Rule of 20 for defaults doesn't come into this at all. The Rule of 16, however, does. What makes Kilgrave dangerous is not that he's trying to affect PCs - that's something that anyone would expect - no, he uses NPCs as weapons, shields, and general throwaway cardboard people. Kilgrave knows that the best way to attack others is through there morality and personal held beliefs. He's essentially a master manipulator who also just happens to have bloody mind control. That's a horrific combination.

Originally Posted by Parabola

I was wondering if this is fairly accurate or are there a lot of qualifiers and boosts to mind control that I don't know about?

Again, don't attack the PCs. Attack the NPCs in the world. If they are any kind of hero then this will affect them worse than if they themselves were attacked. If they're not, then still use people - mob them with everyday joes - eventually the dice will result in a critical and it will be ugly.

Overall, were I building Kilgrave's powers from the show I'd do something like...


Kilgrave Control: Mind Control (Accessibility, Commands will be followed literally, -10%; Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No Rule of 16, +50%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Decreased Immunity 3, +150%; Extended Duration, 300x, +100%; Fixed Margin, +0%; Hearing-Based, -20%; Independent, +70%; Long-Range 1, +50%; Nuisance Effect, Trauma and a successful Will roll make subject immune*, -5%; Rationalization, +20%; Reliable 10, +50%; Smell-Based, -20%) [428]. Notes: So basically a subject needs to hear him and inhale the virus (that's why they were safe when he was in the hermetically sealed room). He didn't seem to take Range penalties or have the usual 24 hour immunity for retrying to give a order- as long as you could smell and hear him he could give you a command and then you'd make a roll against the lower of IQ or Will vs. his Will+10. Fail and you do what he says. Since it's described as being a virus - Resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards would add their usual bonus. Immunity would add +14 and guarantee that you couldn't be "Kilgraved" even though normally Irresistible Attack would blast through them. 458 points.
* As a set of loose guidelines, follow those found under Extra Effort, p. B357.

You add that to Kilgrave's Will, which was described as "iron" by the surgeon who operated on him (while he was awake mind you!) and you're good to go. I'd pin his Will at at least 16 and probably an 18 or 20. It's why no one can resist him usually - he's rolling at 26 or higher and gets to ignore mental shields. That's without Talent (he may not have one - he seems like a one-trick pony).

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Kilgrave Control: Mind Control (Accessibility, Commands will be followed literally, -10%; Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No Rule of 16, +50%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Decreased Immunity 3, +150%; Extended Duration, 300x, +100%; Fixed Margin, +0%; Hearing-Based, -20%; Independent, +70%; Long-Range 1, +50%; Nuisance Effect, Trauma and a successful Will roll make subject immune*, -5%; Rationalization, +20%; Reliable 10, +50%; Smell-Based, -20%) [428].

Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Since this is a Virus, you could throw in HT; "Based on Lower of IQ, Will, or HT" +60%

Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Why are you adding this? It looks like a 0-point feature to say mind shields don't protect but resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards do protect.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Since it's described as being a virus - Resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards would add their usual bonus. Immunity would add +14 and guarantee that you couldn't be "Kilgraved" even though normally Irresistible Attack would blast through them.

Why would Immunity only grant +14?

If it's a power then it could be skill based allowing him to buy up effective skills and he could have power talent further boosting those numbers.

[smurf]

It's not cosmic because J Jones resists it.

It is an HT attack because it is pheromones.

Of course it can be adapted to a psi attack.

Also the attacker must speak directly to the victim.

Moreover the skill is based on margins of success and therefore it should not be limited to the rule of 16.

Now for TV the cinematic effect of the victim killing themselves is not so geat in a game. Therefore resistance rolls could have bonuses against taking their own lives.

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Agreed. It does seem to be fairly absolute. However, there is a way to get that sort of control if you've got the points for it...

Thanks to all of you. There are obviously a lot of "toys" to play with in 4e I didn't know about. I also agree that Kilgrave's biggest advantage is that he is an NPC villain and a psychotic one at that who has no qualms about throwing people in front of trains literally and making them attack the heroes. Basically, he can and will use his power in a way that a player-character can't (or darn well better not).

Of course, since we only see him use his power against normals and against two metahumans and one of the two develops an "immunity", we don't really know what would happen if he tried it on someone like Thor or Captain America with that level of will or other factors. To be sure, some of the feeling that his power is unstoppable comes from that.

But these are some good ideas of how to handle his power. Definitely, if this were ever brought into a game rather than being just an academic task of making him up for the fun of it, there would need to be major penalties for trying to make people do things totally against their principles or kill themselves. It might be okay if he does that to incidental characters as a plot device power but definitely not against the PCs or any major character.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Parabola

Of course, since we only see him use his power against normals and against two metahumans and one of the two develops an "immunity", we don't really know what would happen if he tried it on someone like Thor or Captain America with that level of will or other factors. To be sure, some of the feeling that his power is unstoppable comes from that.

But these are some good ideas of how to handle his power. Definitely, if this were ever brought into a game rather than being just an academic task of making him up for the fun of it, there would need to be major penalties for trying to make people do things totally against their principles or kill themselves. It might be okay if he does that to incidental characters as a plot device power but definitely not against the PCs or any major character.

Rationalization helps him here as the victom tries to come up with justification to obey the commands.
In the comics he was originally a Daredevil enemy but he pretty much fought everyone at one time or another.
Dr. Doom was immune because of his Will.
Spiderwoman because she had a master telepath change her brains response.
Iron Man when prepared for it sealed his armor.
Nova and others could pull that trick to and the Corrupter who took over Thor was a similar villain.
Wonder Man was also immune because hes pretty much an energy being.

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Kilgrave Control: Mind Control (Accessibility, Commands will be followed literally, -10%; Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No Rule of 16, +50%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Decreased Immunity 3, +150%; Extended Duration, 300x, +100%; Fixed Margin, +0%; Hearing-Based, -20%; Independent, +70%; Long-Range 1, +50%; Nuisance Effect, Trauma and a successful Will roll make subject immune*, -5%; Rationalization, +20%; Reliable 10, +50%; Smell-Based, -20%) [428]. Notes: So basically a subject needs to hear him and inhale the virus (that's why they were safe when he was in the hermetically sealed room). He didn't seem to take Range penalties or have the usual 24 hour immunity for retrying to give a order- as long as you could smell and hear him he could give you a command and then you'd make a roll against the lower of IQ or Will vs. his Will+10. Fail and you do what he says. Since it's described as being a virus - Resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards would add their usual bonus. Immunity would add +14 and guarantee that you couldn't be "Kilgraved" even though normally Irresistible Attack would blast through them. 458 points.
* As a set of loose guidelines, follow those found under Extra Effort, p. B357.

You add that to Kilgrave's Will, which was described as "iron" by the surgeon who operated on him (while he was awake mind you!) and you're good to go. I'd pin his Will at at least 16 and probably an 18 or 20. It's why no one can resist him usually - he's rolling at 26 or higher and gets to ignore mental shields. That's without Talent (he may not have one - he seems like a one-trick pony).

I'd appreciate some clarification on what some of these mean.

Decreased Immunity 3, +150%

Does this mean the target receives 3 less than the bonus listed for "Resistant"? Would this have any effect on "Immunity"?

Fixed Margin.

Is this a reference to the fact that his power always has a set time it lasts rather than a variable one? (Though it actually does vary from 10-12 hours).

I would say his range, before the increase at the end of the story, was maybe 10-20 yards. They spoke of his gaining a range of 50-100 yards as a massive increase.

Rationalization. +20%

Not sure what that refers to.

Anyway, thanks for helping.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Since this is a Virus, you could throw in HT; "Based on Lower of IQ, Will, or HT" +60%

This is a possibility, but I felt it was more a mental component than a combination of a physical and mental one. Again, Kilgrave is supposed to have a will of iron so if he ever comes up against a HT 20 mutant or whatever he's gonna have as much of a problem if he faced off against Professor X - that seems odd to me.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Why are you adding this? It looks like a 0-point feature to say mind shields don't protect but resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards do protect.

Because it's clear the writers intended for his character to blast through whatever defenses his targets might have. I agree that swapping mind shields and the like is a -0% feature to have the ability be affected by physical resistances. The more I think about this, the more I think that perhaps the virus part is just fluff and I'm reading into it. So yeah, he sheds a virus and it gets into your brain and that's why he can give you verbal commands. That's it. The virus itself might be "harmless" so it likely doesn't set off a immune response.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Why would Immunity only grant +14?

Normally those with Immunity would just shrug off something like this, but Zombies suggests that an Immunity can provide some measure of protection if one has to make a roll.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

If it's a power then it could be skill based allowing him to buy up effective skills and he could have power talent further boosting those numbers.

Yes. That's possible, but a highly optional rule. If it were me I'd just off a power perk that acts as a Talent for one ability using the Smooth Talent costs from Power-Ups 3.

Originally Posted by smurf

It's not cosmic because J Jones resists it.

Who if she failed to resist would result in a very boring plot. No, the way the writers wrote Kilgrave he's supposed to be an unstoppable force. Irresistible Attack represents that.

Originally Posted by smurf

It is an HT attack because it is pheromones.

No entirely, there is a verbal component to it that requires you hear and smell the target. So that's a toss up. You're free to create your own, but this is my interpretation of an ability presented in a TV show and how it could be made gameable.

Originally Posted by smurf

Also the attacker must speak directly to the victim.

A case could be made to add Hearing-Based, Reversed (-20%), but if the target must hear you in the first place that seems a bit of crockery. No, I stick by needing just hearing-based for this.

Originally Posted by smurf

Moreover the skill is based on margins of success and therefore it should not be limited to the rule of 16.

That's what "Cosmic, No Rule of 16" is for. Otherwise Rule of 16 always applies regardless of whether it's skill-based on not. Go reread the the box on p. B349.

Originally Posted by smurf

Now for TV the cinematic effect of the victim killing themselves is not so geat in a game. Therefore resistance rolls could have bonuses against taking their own lives.

Originally Posted by Parabola

Thanks to all of you. There are obviously a lot of "toys" to play with in 4e I didn't know about. I also agree that Kilgrave's biggest advantage is that he is an NPC villain and a psychotic one at that who has no qualms about throwing people in front of trains literally and making them attack the heroes. Basically, he can and will use his power in a way that a player-character can't (or darn well better not).

Of course, since we only see him use his power against normals and against two metahumans and one of the two develops an "immunity", we don't really know what would happen if he tried it on someone like Thor or Captain America with that level of will or other factors. To be sure, some of the feeling that his power is unstoppable comes from that.

But these are some good ideas of how to handle his power. Definitely, if this were ever brought into a game rather than being just an academic task of making him up for the fun of it, there would need to be major penalties for trying to make people do things totally against their principles or kill themselves. It might be okay if he does that to incidental characters as a plot device power but definitely not against the PCs or any major character.

Honestly, I'll probably use it at one point in my Aeon supers campaign, but doubtfully as a totally written.

Originally Posted by Parabola

I'd appreciate some clarification on what some of these mean.

Sure!

Originally Posted by Parabola

Decreased Immunity 3, +150%

Does this mean the target receives 3 less than the bonus listed for "Resistant"? Would this have any effect on "Immunity"?

Normally, if you successful resist Mind Control you get a 24 hours immunity to that controller. Kilgrave appears to have no such waiting period. See p. 21 of Psionic Powers.

Originally Posted by Parabola

Fixed Margin.

Is this a reference to the fact that his power always has a set time it lasts rather than a variable one? (Though it actually does vary from 10-12 hours).

Correct Fixed Margin (Which should be Fixed DURATION) means regardless of how well you rolled or how bad the duration is always the same. Add Extended Duration to increase the length of that time. In Kilgrave's case about 10 to 12 hours. So to turn three minutes (normal time of one minute per point of margin) into 12 hours you need EXtended Duration 300x. See p. 21 of Psionic Powers.

Originally Posted by Parabola

I would say his range, before the increase at the end of the story, was maybe 10-20 yards. They spoke of his gaining a range of 50-100 yards as a massive increase.

This something I forgot last night. You'd need to add Area Effect 4 (+200%) and Selective Area (+20%) so he can control mobs of people at once - which is does do on a few occasions.

Originally Posted by Parabola

Rationalization. +20%

See p. 15 of Psionic Powers. Basically, the target remembers wht he did, but did it because he thought he wanted to vs. outside influence.

Originally Posted by Parabola

Anyway, thanks for helping.

Sure. :-)

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

This is a possibility, but I felt it was more a mental component than a combination of a physical and mental one. Again, Kilgrave is supposed to have a will of iron so if he ever comes up against a HT 20 mutant or whatever he's gonna have as much of a problem if he faced off against Professor X - that seems odd to me.

If he faced off against Thor or the Hulk, I would expect him to have problems, but without seeing that fight we can't know, but if it's described as a virus it's a reasonable assumption. And it might be the reason Jessica became immune, she's got a pretty high HT.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Because it's clear the writers intended for his character to blast through whatever defenses his targets might have.

An airtight room stops it.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I agree that swapping mind shields and the like is a -0% feature to have the ability be affected by physical resistances. The more I think about this, the more I think that perhaps the virus part is just fluff and I'm reading into it. So yeah, he sheds a virus and it gets into your brain and that's why he can give you verbal commands. That's it. The virus itself might be "harmless" so it likely doesn't set off a immune response.

Well that's your interpretation, we only see him face off against normal people and two supers, one that becomes immune and the other who's only under his influence for a short while.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Normally those with Immunity would just shrug off something like this, but Zombies suggests that an Immunity can provide some measure of protection if one has to make a roll.

Originally Posted by Zombies page 30

Extraordinary Symptoms: A zombie plague could be an “ordinary” bacterial, fungal, parasitic, or viral disease with astonishing symptoms. The resistance roll may be difficult (as severe as -6 for infectivity), but a robust immune system helps. In that case, Resistant to Disease functions normally. Certain forms of contagion make a roll to infect instead of offering a roll to resist; against these, treat +3 or +8 to HT as -3 or -8 to the disease’s success roll. Whatever rolls are involved, Immunity completely blocks an “ordinary” zombie plague.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yes. That's possible, but a highly optional rule. If it were me I'd just off a power perk that acts as a Talent for one ability using the Smooth Talent costs from Power-Ups 3.

It's used as standard in the GURPS psionics series

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

If he faced off against Thor or the Hulk, I would expect him to have problems, but without seeing that fight we can't know, but if it's described as a virus it's a reasonable assumption. And it might be the reason Jessica became immune, she's got a pretty high HT.

Maybe. Wanda got into Banner's head and Thor's too and Kilgrave is easily in her range.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

An airtight room stops it.

An airtight, soundproof room stops it.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Well that's your interpretation, we only see him face off against normal people and two supers, one that becomes immune and the other who's only under his influence for a short while.

Yup. It sure is. :-) But the way Kilgrave is written makes it seem like he is an unstoppable force. A force that two very strong-minded people could not resist even with their enhanced biology.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

It's used as standard in the GURPS psionics series

Yes, but that's psionics, this is supers. PK has already stated if a superpowers system was ever done he'd prefer a different approach to the one he took in Psionic Powers. Were I doing it (and I've thought about it), I'd create a system to translate powers as skills, have a static "power" attribute, and then create a list of modifiers to "stunt" your power to.

TL;DR Someone asked for opinions on how Kilgrave's power was written up I gave it. I spent part of my Christmas Day answering the question. This is how I would do it. It's expensive, but it should be. It's an "I win button" in most cases.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

This is how I would do it. It's expensive, but it should be. It's an "I win button" in most cases.

A large part of the expense comes from the +300% Cosmic Irresistible, but we don't see him go up against anyone who has a mind shield or anything that the Cosmic Irresistible would actually help with, so you could drop that and have pretty much the same effect.