Mind Control Question

[Parabola]

I watched the "Jessica Jones" series recently with Kilgrave. Granted he's sort of in the unstoppable mind control category that just doesn't work in a game. Until Jessica, it's as if nobody ever ever rolled a critical success or he ever fumbled (in game terms, of course). That's fine for a story but it doesn't work in a game.

But it got me to looking at the new (4e) version of Mind Control. Now, I really haven't gamed since the 4e stuff came out so I've read it but haven't explored it in detail. However, the impression I get is that Mind Control in the new rules is, well, pretty useless. What I mean is that, reading the advantage, it is basically the Mind Controller rolling his IQ versus the Will (IQ + Will) of the target. It would seem that, in most situations against another player or significant NPC, the Mind Controller is going to have way less than a 50-50 chance of having any effect. In my experience, players like to have resistance to things like mind control and it's far cheaper than buying IQ. Plus you've got the rule of 20 though people can still buy Mind Shield.

I was wondering if this is fairly accurate or are there a lot of qualifiers and boosts to mind control that I don't know about?

Thanks in advance. It's really just an academic question. While I don't get much chance to roleplay anymore, I'm still fascinated with it.

[Refplace]

You can add Reliable to if you like, also Powers and GURPS Psionics have additional modifiiers. Including one where there not Immune if you crit fail.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by Parabola

What I mean is that, reading the advantage, it is basically the Mind Controller rolling his IQ versus the Will (IQ + Will) of the target.

Not against IQ+Will, just against Will. That will usually be equal to IQ, of course. A dedicated mind controller won't have a lower IQ then most targets.

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by Parabola

Will (IQ + Will)

Will =/= Will + IQ. Will is, by default, equal to IQ unless bought up or down from IQ with character points.

It would seem that, in most situations against another player or significant NPC, the Mind Controller is going to have way less than a 50-50 chance of having any effect.

The average person has both IQ and Will at 10, so it is exactly a 50-50 chance assuming average people.

In my experience, players like to have resistance to things like mind control and it's far cheaper than buying IQ.

That's because buying up IQ for 20 points increases the effective skill level of about 180 skills, not counting the 800 magic spells potentially available, not to mention increasing Perception and Will, plus giving better resistant to mental stun and a variety of other mental effects. So of course, Resistant to Mind Control is cheaper.

Plus you've got the rule of 20 though people can still buy Mind Shield.

The rule of 20 is for Spells, iirc. IDHMBWM. But the general idea is that there's still a chance to defend. If you really want to ignore Mind Shield, buy Cosmic for your Mind Control.

I was wondering if this is fairly accurate or are there a lot of qualifiers and boosts to mind control that I don't know about?

Anything that lowers IQ or Will helps the mind controller break through resistance. If the GM allows Skills for Everyone from Powers, you can also buy up your skill with Mind Control as a Hard IQ-based skill. Lastly, see Possessions Under Control from Alternate Gurps IV for a more detailed treatment of Possession and a way to apply the rules to mind reading and mind control. In the lattermost, a common trick is to apply irritating or incapacitating conditions to the subject via mental control points. Of course, you can always use afflictions or magic for that, too.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Parabola

But it got me to looking at the new (4e) version of Mind Control. Now, I really haven't gamed since the 4e stuff came out so I've read it but haven't explored it in detail. However, the impression I get is that Mind Control in the new rules is, well, pretty useless. What I mean is that, reading the advantage, it is basically the Mind Controller rolling his IQ versus the Will (IQ + Will) of the target. .

Yeeeah. No. Even assuming that you were just using Characters and nothing else, a mind controller like Kilgrave would certainly have a +4 on his roll from a talent and by dumping his entire point total into maximising his IQ, he'd surely overwhelm the defenses of a comparable point-total character who can actually do other things. That's the advantage of being a one-trick pony. Nor is the Rule of 20 relevant. That only affects statistics for the purpose of calculating default rolls. An IQ mind control roll is not a default roll.

Of course being a mind controlling one trick pony with a big point budget produces bizarre results like IQ 40 mind controllers, so you need to look to Powers to find "based on skill" and "reliable"

[Anaraxes]

If it's just a matter of the cost of buying things up, then you could base Mind Control on Will. Or base it on a an IQ/H skill, as is done in Psionic Powers. (That will be cheaper than Will.)

Originally Posted by Humabout

The rule of 20 is for Spells, iirc.

The Rule of 20 (B173) is for skill defaults (which are based on a max of 20 if the base attribute is higher).

The Rule of 16 (B349) is for resistance rolls, and limits the attacker's effective skill to the max of the defender's resistance or 16. The text says "supernatural attacks" and cites both magic and psi (along with "etc") for context, so it would clearly apply to Mind Control of Kilgrave's sort.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If it's just a matter of the cost of buying things up, then you could base Mind Control on Will. Or base it on a an IQ/H skill, as is done in Psionic Powers. (That will be cheaper than Will.)

The Rule of 20 (B173) is for skill defaults (which are based on a max of 20 if the base attribute is higher).

The Rule of 16 (B349) is for resistance rolls, and limits the attacker's effective skill to the max of the defender's resistance or 16. The text says "supernatural attacks" and cites both magic and psi (along with "etc") for context, so it would clearly apply to Mind Control of Kilgrave's sort.

Of course a 50-50 chance means success in short order until you get punched out in the first couple of seconds.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Parabola

I watched the "Jessica Jones" series recently with Kilgrave. Granted he's sort of in the unstoppable mind control category that just doesn't work in a game. Until Jessica, it's as if nobody ever ever rolled a critical success or he ever fumbled (in game terms, of course). That's fine for a story but it doesn't work in a game.

Agreed. It does seem to be fairly absolute. However, there is a way to get that sort of control if you've got the points for it.

Originally Posted by Parabola

But it got me to looking at the new (4e) version of Mind Control. Now, I really haven't gamed since the 4e stuff came out so I've read it but haven't explored it in detail. However, the impression I get is that Mind Control in the new rules is, well, pretty useless. What I mean is that, reading the advantage, it is basically the Mind Controller rolling his IQ versus the Will (IQ + Will) of the target. It would seem that, in most situations against another player or significant NPC, the Mind Controller is going to have way less than a 50-50 chance of having any effect. In my experience, players like to have resistance to things like mind control and it's far cheaper than buying IQ. Plus you've got the rule of 20 though people can still buy Mind Shield.

The Rule of 20 for defaults doesn't come into this at all. The Rule of 16, however, does. What makes Kilgrave dangerous is not that he's trying to affect PCs - that's something that anyone would expect - no, he uses NPCs as weapons, shields, and general throwaway cardboard people. Kilgrave knows that the best way to attack others is through there morality and personal held beliefs. He's essentially a master manipulator who also just happens to have bloody mind control. That's a horrific combination.

Originally Posted by Parabola

I was wondering if this is fairly accurate or are there a lot of qualifiers and boosts to mind control that I don't know about?

Again, don't attack the PCs. Attack the NPCs in the world. If they are any kind of hero then this will affect them worse than if they themselves were attacked. If they're not, then still use people - mob them with everyday joes - eventually the dice will result in a critical and it will be ugly.

Overall, were I building Kilgrave's powers from the show I'd do something like...


Kilgrave Control: Mind Control (Accessibility, Commands will be followed literally, -10%; Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No Rule of 16, +50%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Decreased Immunity 3, +150%; Extended Duration, 300x, +100%; Fixed Margin, +0%; Hearing-Based, -20%; Independent, +70%; Long-Range 1, +50%; Nuisance Effect, Trauma and a successful Will roll make subject immune*, -5%; Rationalization, +20%; Reliable 10, +50%; Smell-Based, -20%) [428]. Notes: So basically a subject needs to hear him and inhale the virus (that's why they were safe when he was in the hermetically sealed room). He didn't seem to take Range penalties or have the usual 24 hour immunity for retrying to give a order- as long as you could smell and hear him he could give you a command and then you'd make a roll against the lower of IQ or Will vs. his Will+10. Fail and you do what he says. Since it's described as being a virus - Resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards would add their usual bonus. Immunity would add +14 and guarantee that you couldn't be "Kilgraved" even though normally Irresistible Attack would blast through them. 458 points.
* As a set of loose guidelines, follow those found under Extra Effort, p. B357.

You add that to Kilgrave's Will, which was described as "iron" by the surgeon who operated on him (while he was awake mind you!) and you're good to go. I'd pin his Will at at least 16 and probably an 18 or 20. It's why no one can resist him usually - he's rolling at 26 or higher and gets to ignore mental shields. That's without Talent (he may not have one - he seems like a one-trick pony).

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Kilgrave Control: Mind Control (Accessibility, Commands will be followed literally, -10%; Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No Rule of 16, +50%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Decreased Immunity 3, +150%; Extended Duration, 300x, +100%; Fixed Margin, +0%; Hearing-Based, -20%; Independent, +70%; Long-Range 1, +50%; Nuisance Effect, Trauma and a successful Will roll make subject immune*, -5%; Rationalization, +20%; Reliable 10, +50%; Smell-Based, -20%) [428].

Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Since this is a Virus, you could throw in HT; "Based on Lower of IQ, Will, or HT" +60%

Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Why are you adding this? It looks like a 0-point feature to say mind shields don't protect but resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards do protect.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Since it's described as being a virus - Resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards would add their usual bonus. Immunity would add +14 and guarantee that you couldn't be "Kilgraved" even though normally Irresistible Attack would blast through them.

Why would Immunity only grant +14?

If it's a power then it could be skill based allowing him to buy up effective skills and he could have power talent further boosting those numbers.

[smurf]

It's not cosmic because J Jones resists it.

It is an HT attack because it is pheromones.

Of course it can be adapted to a psi attack.

Also the attacker must speak directly to the victim.

Moreover the skill is based on margins of success and therefore it should not be limited to the rule of 16.

Now for TV the cinematic effect of the victim killing themselves is not so geat in a game. Therefore resistance rolls could have bonuses against taking their own lives.