I wonder when DF will do non-European fantasy

[Anthony]

Well, there could be a 'DF: Explorers', covering going off on adventures to far-off lands to find things to kill and loot. It's pretty much in theme for DF.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

It's not politics. It's fashion. The tropes of pop culture outside of clearly identifiable Western sources (kung fu movies, the Arabian Nights, Bollywood mythological epics, etc.) can fit well in the DF paradigm and are evocative in their own ways. They're a kind of fun which, one may argue, has so far been inadequately explored, but they provide ample grist for the mill, so why not? I have little interest in translating specific items from history and mythology into DF terms, but the underlying flavors are ones I happen to enjoy, so I'd be happy to see more DF which partakes of those tropes. More fake Asia to go with the fake Europe which informs a lot of DF! And some fake Africa! And some fake Americas! More everything! Too much is never enough!

That said, I think DF points in that direction more than one might suspect, or at least fails to point away: most templates are fairly culture-neutral (I don't see how one would have to change the thief template to make it conform to pop-culture tropes of feudal Japan or ancient Egypt; the decorative motifs and techniques in DF8 are essentially global) or can be trivially used to adapt them to specific cultures (a samurai is just a knight using a katana; take the axe away from the faux-Viking barbarian, give him a spear and a large shield, and he's a Zulu), a number of bits and pieces are more loudly evocative of non-western tropes than others (shamans, for example), and Mirror of the Fire Demon is in emphatically not-European geography.

Well, just to start with, Zulus fought in regimentalized impis and Vikings did not. Vikings never had to run over hot coals and Zulus never tried to found colonies between New England and Russia. So there was a lot of difference in style.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Well, just to start with, Zulus fought in regimentalized impis and Vikings did not. Vikings never had to run over hot coals and Zulus never tried to found colonies between New England and Russia. So there was a lot of difference in style.

Yeah, I think you're missing the point of DF here. We're not talking about real Vikings or real Zulus here any more than DF knights are real knights who have to deal with the strictures of manorialism or DF clerics are worried about homoiousion vs. homoousion. These are fictional archetypes, the Vikings and Zulus of pulpy adventure stories. The political sophistication of the historical Zulu kingdom and extensive trade networks of the Vikings don't enter into it.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Well, just to start with, Zulus fought in regimentalized impis and Vikings did not. Vikings never had to run over hot coals and Zulus never tried to found colonies between New England and Russia. So there was a lot of difference in style.

On the other hand, we're not trying to write a book of ethnic clichés in the style of some of the more toe curling efforts from early D&D (or other systems) ... mechanically I suspect the differences can be quite small and, as noted, DF is no respecter of real world cultures.

[Orochi-art]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I really like the DF series and I believe it will follow the D&D pattern. First it will stick to the standard Tolkien fantasy along with monsters from European myths and monsters.

These are first associations, that come to mind, when someone asks a question related with fantasy. Knights, wizards, elves, dwarves and orcs. These are commonplace in our history and popular culture so it is only natural when someone mentions fantasy that you see it like this.

Originally Posted by b-dog

But later when D&D exhausted all they could with orcs and elves they moved on to Oriental Adventures and then they had some setting called Al Quadim in the Islamic world. So I am just curious if or maybe when the DF series will exhaust the fight against orcs and trolls and then move onto a different culture.

If D&D is any indicator; looking at number of books they published on classes and races I wouldn’t say they exhausted everything. And I’m just talking about 2nd edition. Then there are 3 - 3.5 edition books that made their own spin of things. Then we mustn’t forget 3rd party publishing and now there is Pathfinder that also made tons of books with their own spin of things (and there are 3rd party for Pathfinder).

I think they got bored of them. Or to make it more specific their customers would get bored so they needed to make it fresh to keep their clients. Why would I buy Paladin book #3? Is there something groundbreaking and new in it that it is necessary to have it? If you eat pizza all the time you will soon be fed up and will acquire taste for something different. Same goes with everything else we consume. Even rpgs.

This is what I would describe as having or experiencing “visual saturation”. You become sick of seeing knights, peasants and dragons and now you are looking for something else. So you play around with feudal Japan, Arabian nights, Ancient Greece or Rome for example.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I could easily imagine an entirely kickass dungeon fantasy campaign using the same tropes as DF, set in ancient Greece with the serial numbers files off only a tiny bit.

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

CousinX used DF to run a high-power Japanese-themed hack / slash / loot fantasy game and it worked no problem, and I've done a partial write-up for a Hindu Mythology theme DF setting using the same rules that I'd like to run someday.

Originally Posted by RyanW

Other than equipment list and slightly different flavors of races and monsters, what is needed?

Originally Posted by Anthony

Within the genre of Dungeon Fantasy, different cultures are mostly bestiaries and flavor text.

As you can see before I even posted there were already people stating opinions similar to mine. You must remember that different culture usually doesn’t change the structure of the story. Mostly what is changed is the visual input. And that is only the outer layer.

Visually knight, viking, samurai and roman legionary look different from one another but still they all fill the same role. They can have different background but in their core they are same. They are warriors. You can change the name but warrior still remains a warrior.



Few years ago I had epiphany. To give it context my group usually plays few different campaigns at the same time. To avoid burnout and allowing GMs to plan their games every few weeks GM would finish a story arc for his game and other GM would step in from where his campaing stopped. So we switching between game campaigns (sometimes even game systems).

One day it just clicked to me that we could play any of those particular stories, change the culture and visuals while the story in its core would remain the same.




I’ll give you an example, of what I'm talking about, from popular culture.

https://cdn3.artstation.com/p/assets...jpg?1443930654 If for have time placing this scene it is reimaging of opening scene of New Hope.


Imagine Star Wars in Feudal Japan.

Japan is under civil war. Spies of Rebel Forces, opposing the Shogun, have stolen plans detailing structural weakness to the Death Star, a heavily armed and armored castle placed on strategic position enabling it to attack, and lay siege on any of multiple adjacent regions. Princess Leia, in possession of those plans, is taking shelter in castle that is currently under siege by shogunate forces led by Darth Vader. Before the castle falls she gives the plans to her two retainers R2-D2 and C-3PO and sends them to Tatooine province.
On their way two retainers are unfortunately captured by slavers and sold to rice farmer Owen Lars. Luke Skywalker, Owen’s nephew, overhears two retainers one day and hears them talking about how they need to find a person called Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke wonders if she is referring to Ben Kenobi, a hermit and ronin who lives nearby…

Obi-Wan tells Luke of his days as a Jedi, who were a faction of former shogunate peacekeepers ...

Han Solo is river smuggler. .. Jabba is local yakuza boss… Millennium Falcon is fastest river ship… Chewbacca is from china and only Han Solo knows Chinese… Imperial Forces burn down city of Alderaan...


As you can see nothing in basic structure changed from the original movie. Same goes for Dungeon Fantasy. You don’t need 400 classes based on different cultures. You only need to figure out how to play dungeon fantasy in particular theme.



Out there exists books written on every common setting and theme known. Hell, there are multiple books written on same theme. So there is no reason for Dungeon Fantasy to make culture books. You can read other rpgs and historical books for that. And if you think this is tasking and doing unnecessary research just remember when you are reading any GURPS book you are also doing research and learning about that specific world. So there is no difference.

And what is great about GURPS is that it allows you to use those books for setting and adapt it to this system. And if you want to stay GURPS purist you even have GURPS book line that pretty much already covered all common settings you can think of (Age of Napoleon, Arabian Nights, Atlantis, Aztecs, Banestorm, Camelot, Celtic Myth, China, Egypt, Greece, Ice Age, Imperial Rome, Japan, Middle Ages, Old West, Robin Hood, Russia, Swachbucklers, Vikings).

[Gold & Appel Inc]

b-dog,

You are talking about pruning DF, not adding to it. DF already contains everything you say you want here; just shape the specific game into the aesthetic you want and go. If you really want published source material, there is 3e Arabian Nights, but even that is a little setting-heavy for DF unless you really know absolutely nothing at all about the genre and just need to skim the high points, IMHO.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

b-dog,

You are talking about pruning DF, not adding to it. DF already contains everything you say you want here; just shape the specific game into the aesthetic you want and go. If you really want published source material, there is 3e Arabian Nights, but even that is a little setting-heavy for DF unless you really know absolutely nothing at all about the genre and just need to skim the high points, IMHO.

What is wrong with wanting some aesthetic books? For me, I really enjoy interesting details and touches. Not everything has to be about gaming mechanics.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by b-dog

What is wrong with wanting some aesthetic books? For me, I really enjoy interesting details and touches. Not everything has to be about gaming mechanics.

Does that require a DF specific book? If it's aesthetics you're after, 3e Arabian Nights or Aztecs would still provide a sense of those aesthetics.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by b-dog

What is wrong with wanting some aesthetic books? For me, I really enjoy interesting details and touches. Not everything has to be about gaming mechanics.

Originally Posted by Railstar

Does that require a DF specific book? If it's aesthetics you're after, 3e Arabian Nights or Aztecs would still provide a sense of those aesthetics.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Nothing. They just aren't Dungeon Fantasy.

I'm with Railstar and Anthony, b-dog. Dungeon Fantasy is not the only Fantasy out there, and using the DF books as a resource does not automatically make a game into a DF game; conversely, using a setting book in a DF game does not automatically make it a non-DF game. Use the slew of 3e setting books and even books in the history section of the public library's non-fiction shelves (to quote Conan the Librarian*, "Don't you know the Dewey Decimal System?") to help flesh out your game for the feel; that's what they're there for.

Far too often I see people who think "Dungeon Fantasy is the only fantasy", or that using a DF resource (such as Allies or Summoners) means the whole game is centered around kick-in-the-door hack-and-slash when it's not. The fact is the DF books are written in a cultural-agnostic manner; the cultures applied come from outside the DF line.

That said, an Egyptian, Hindi, or Chinese-flavored dungeon would be a nice touch visually. Books dedicated those those cultures, however, are not necessarily going to be Dungeon Fantasy books; at most, they'll have sections for how to apply the culture to DF, another section for how to apply it to Action!, a third to sci-fi settings, etc.






* from UHF, a movie starring Weird Al Yankovik and that guy who went on to play Kramer in Seinfeld. Pure classic stuff in that movie. I recommend everyone see it at least once.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by b-dog

What is wrong with wanting some aesthetic books?

Nothing. They just aren't Dungeon Fantasy.