On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

[DouglasCole]

I put a version for Judo on my blog. The formatting's a bit funny for now, I'll fix it over time.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by OldSam

IMHO it's really not much what you get from Basic Set for 1 Pt compared to 0 Pt... (in Brawling or Karate) But if Martial Arts kicks in, I am much more satisfied with the result: MA113 with "Limited Maneuver Selection" and "Coin Toss" Option (limiting untrained fighters to AoA and AoD).

There's a problem with that logic: you get the same if you put a point in Knife. RAW, putting a single point in Knife (not Art or Sport) means you're cool enough in a combat that you don't have Limited Maneuver Selection and "Coin Toss" Option even in unarmed combat. And you can also fight with a knife at DX instead of at DX-4.

[Cheomesh]

It's also worth noting that if you take Karate at 1 point, using DX to strike would seem to deprive you Karate defenses, since it is not Karate you're using. Form Mastery would be required to strike at DX and then have Karate ready for your defense.

Anyways, I put up my quick-n-dirty thoughts on the subject on my blog here.

Basically: Solve all this by making Brawling a DX-4 skill, and have that be the default "naturalistic striking" skill. It's then in line with things like Running and Climbing, and lets you get a to-hit improvement right off the bat with a point in Karate (or Boxing)

M.

[Kalzazz]

I've really wanted to switch that around sometime and give humans and related DX to use a weapon (so all weapon skills default to DX) and DX-4 for defaults for all unarmed stuff, just A - haven't hammered out the fussy bits, and B - not sure it would ever actually matter in game enough to do A

It definitely coincides a lot better with how I view the setting I want to use it for, and I personally think it feels a way lot more natural to try and use a stick than a fist, one of the great things about humans is that we want to use tools. And it really annoys me that people are more likely to land a blow with a fist than a broadsword given equal lack of training

[Cheomesh]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

And it really annoys me that people are more likely to land a blow with a fist than a broadsword given equal lack of training

I think part of this - and this is just me, pulling words out of nowhere - has to do with the ranges involved. Fist strikes are right in the same hex, where almost all weapons are outside of it. I've brought this up in regards to knives, as well.

Also, general spatial awareness. I'm well aware of where my fists are. The striky bit of a club, however...

Whether or not this is why, or even correct, well, eh. Just a thought.

M.

[Kalzazz]

When I have ever been trying to hit something, and hit something with the intent of doing serious damage to it, it has been with a tool such as an axe, pickaxe, sledgehammer, machete or bush axe

Obviously I haven't been using these in combat situations, but I haven't been using my fists in combat situations either, but I definitely have way more 'try to hit something with sufficient wallop to damage the something' experience with tools than with my bare hands

And it is at least in some faux ways quasi related in that I can't possibly be the only person who has pretended the bamboo and brush they were hewing down was Sauron's Legions and done faux Kung Fu moves with a bush axe standing in for a Kwan Dao right?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

When I have ever been trying to hit something, and hit something with the intent of doing serious damage to it, it has been with a tool such as an axe, pickaxe, sledgehammer, machete or bush axe

Obviously I haven't been using these in combat situations, but I haven't been using my fists in combat situations either, but I definitely have way more 'try to hit something with sufficient wallop to damage the something' experience with tools than with my bare hands

And it is at least in some faux ways quasi related in that I can't possibly be the only person who has pretended the bamboo and brush they were hewing down was Sauron's Legions and done faux Kung Fu moves with a bush axe standing in for a Kwan Dao right?

I think the key bit here is have someone toss a ball at you. You can catch it with your hand. You will probably not be able to stop it with the head of an axe, or the edge of a sword, without a lot more practice.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Sure, but whether it's One Trick Wonder, Dabbler, or Wrestling Dx -1, it would still cost 1 point. My point was simply that the 200 hours = 1 point equivalency doesn't work reliably in real life.

Perks and skills are priced on different scales utility versus difficulty. Though I suppose at one point you are at a very similar mark.

Languages are another different example. There is NO way that 200 hours of study is a guideline for broken spoken Esperanto. Though it might be for written Mandarin, though probably not for fluent.

If you allow that first point to be bought earlier you probably fix this for most skills and advantages.

IIRC PADI is probably much less than 30 hours of 'study' but it's probably enough to justify one point of SCUBA (for a beginner) just to differentiate from someone who once did a fun dive.


I think also you could use a IQ roll to discount study time. A critical success gives the first point at x% less normal success y% and ordinary failure the full 200 hours (critical failure you learn nothing).

[safisher]

One other thing to consider is that Martial Arts includes "harsh realism" rules for untrained and unarmed fighters. This would help make the distinction a little sharper if applied to 1 pt. in Karate discussion. At the least, the difference for untrained fighters who choose either All-Out Attack and All-Out Defense, and the trained fighter could chose other maneuvers -- like Evaluate and Defensive Attack.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

There's a problem with that logic: you get the same if you put a point in Knife. RAW, putting a single point in Knife (not Art or Sport) means you're cool enough in a combat that you don't have Limited Maneuver Selection and "Coin Toss" Option even in unarmed combat.

You mean like with every other melee weapon skill, right?
Well, yes, that leaves out some subtle differences between unarmed and armed melee skills. But at least that's a quite little gap, it seems to fall out of GURPS' resolution level...
On the other hand it acknowledges that the basic understanding of combat is always the same here and makes an inportant difference to completely untrained fighters - so MA definitely improves the situation IMHO. I think, given the possibilities, the MA ruling is good anyway.