Need some help with hand-to-hand combat/Martial Arts

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC

In preparation for the game, he and I have run several test combat scenarios both to familiarize us with the rules (We are using both Martial Arts and Technical Grappling and make sure we have a good understanding of the character's capabilities.

A wise choice, padawan.

I'm actually quite pleased that there are a very few TG-specific questions (at least so far). If you have any, first check out The Grappling Mat over at my blog and see if you can find answers there, and if not, bring 'em on.

Rapid Strike:
-What is the sequence? Attack roll 1, Def roll 1, dmg roll, etc, then Atk roll 2, Def roll 2, dmg roll, etc, or do you roll both attacks first, then both defenses, etc.

Yeah, by and large you resolve them one at a time and have to react if your foe drops. That being said, nothing would break if you resolved them differently (all attacks, then all defenses, then damage) . . . but that isn't the assumption in the rules. Witness the discussion of Combinations in Martial Arts - Peter and Sean call out explicitly that if something disrupts the flow of the combo, it just ends with no recourse. And they are basically trained Rapid Strikes, and they're even priced that way.

-If the former, what happens if the first attack results in the opponent being prone or somehow out of reach for the 2nd attack?

I think that the intent is that the attacker is out of luck unless they can compensate. You are allowed, for example, to attack foe A, step, and then attack foe B if you want.

-Is the way you handle two attacks for a Rapid Strike (per above) the same for handling AoA: Double and/or Extra Attack?

I might handle them differently (and more leniently) because on the one hand you're giving up all your defenses, and on the other you paid a bunch of points for it.

-In Martial Arts, the text mentions that when performing a Combination attack, if you use two different hands (i.e. Left Jab + Right Cross) then the Rapid Strike penalty is only -4 instead of -6. Does this only apply when using a purchased/improved Combination technique, or does it apply to any Rapid Strike if you are using different hands for each strike? What about doing a Rapid Strike with 1 punch and 1 kick, or two kicks with different legs?

I suspect if they'd wanted to make it general, they would have. No-handed parries in TG could have been generalized too . . . but we didn't, and left them grappling only.

Grab and Smash
-If you are attempting a Grab and Smash (Kiss the Wall), can you roll against Judo, or are you just limited to DX/Wrestling/Sumo Wrestling?

The list is explict, and Judo isn't on it. Had they wanted to be inclusive, they would have said "any grappling skill" or "your best grappling skill." Judo is not assumed to have nastiness like this in it.

-The Grab and Smash section in Martial Arts mentions grappling the head of a foe and pulling it down for a knee attack. Is the penalty for targeting the Face still a -5? Do you have to do something mechanically to pull the head down for a knee other than Grapple + Knee attack?

I think it's a regular attack, and the pulling down is implicit in the AoA bonus damage. So yes, -5, and no, nothing special.

-If I Grapple a Foe's torso with 1 hand and Karate punch him in the face, I can add the CP from the one-handed grab to my punch damage. Does that dynamic change at all if I grappled my Foe's Head instead of his torso? If not what is the motivation for grabbing the head if your goal is Grab & Smash?

The box on MA p. 118 stipulates "if the grapple works and you hit the grappled location with a thrusting attack . . . " Technical Grappling doesn't overwrite that, so if you want to punch face, you have to grapple face, unless I state otherwise somewhere. You can usually spend CP from adjacent locations for grappling moves, but Grab and Smash is a strike, so if you want to punch the face, grapple the head (or neck).

That being said, if you want to run it the other way, then no, there's no reason to grapple the head to do G&S to the face.

Posture

-What posture do you use for someone who is bent over at the waist, but still standing (like this)? Is that in any of the books, or do you have to make something up? If so, what sort of changes to hit location penalties would you make, if any?

All of the CP he's got on him from Arm Lock, the lock itself, and whatever pain he's suffering are probably sufficient without worrying about posture. If you truly want to bend him over like that, you'll need to execute a Force Posture Change, and since he's clearly not kneeling, the only option is to force him to a Crouch - though not sure what the point of that is.

Judo Parry
-The rules say that Judo (and Karate) can make a bare-handed parry against a weapon at no penalty. Does this require he Judo guy to step into Close Combat, or can Parry an attack from a Reach 1 sword and remain in an adjacent hex? If so, how do you describe that? Most of the empty hand vs. weapon defenses I've learned in Eskrima deal with intercepting/deflecting the weapon arm, not the weapon itself (unless it's a thrust), which is likely to get you cut if someone is swinging a machete at your head.

This is a case where realism is trumped (in the rules) by play balance, I think. Judo/Karate are Hard skills, so "parry weapons without penalty" is what they do.

Personally, I like your solution - and if you read Grabbing Parry (TG, p. 42) you'll see a lot of the modifiers address exactly the case you're describing.

Are there any mechanics in GURPS for a Stun in unarmed or armed combat that does not result in falling prone? I've been kicked in the stomach hard enough to knock the wind out of me and "Stun" me for a few seconds in training, but it was easy to keep my feet. In addition, this is a common trope in cinema for the hero to be able to throw a stunning strike that momentarily dazes his opponent, but doesn't drop him prone.

I get that having an opponent who is stunned AND prone is tactically more valuable that one who is just stunned, but I'd like to know if there is a mechanic out there that would produce this affect and I've just missed it. Frankly, I've considered not having prone be part of the stun unless the strike that caused it hit the eye, the face, or the skull. Again, not sure how this would affect other things that I hadn't considering, so I'm asking the experts.

I don't think anyone's got a rule for it. If you're not adverse to another roll, make a HT roll to see if you also fall prone. Another way to go would be if you fail the stun roll by X, you also fall prone.

Riposte
-Can you use a Riposte on a Judo Parry and then on your turn perform a defensive Judo throw and the opponent suffers the Riposte penalty on his Active Defense?

Yes, and if you have the skill to pull it off, you absolutely should do this.

[EskrimadorNC]

Thanks for all of the great replies. My buddy was right...this game has an awesome community, and it's especially cool when you can get some responses from one of the actual book authors!

Originally Posted by Kuba

Awesome.
So this definitely dodging. He's retreating for +3, he's all-out defending for +2, his opponent is telegraphing, both by telling him how he'll attack (punching, no grappling or kicking), and by telling him where he'll attack (face), which adds another +2, for a total of +7. For an average person, that's a dodge of 15. Combined with the fact that he's facing people who aren't skilled boxers, they're probably rolling against a 9 to hit his face. Hence why he ends up relatively untouched.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

There's already a rule for that: Boxing Parries get a +3 bonus for Retreats (+2 for Sidesteps, +1 for Slips), versus +1, +0, -1 (respectively) for Brawling or Wrestling parries. So if you're a boxer and you can move around on your defense, you defend better and that can be treated as a non-contact defense.

Also, for more on "what is a parry", see the box by the same name on MA 122.

I think I posted a pretty poor example with the video, so just forget that you all saw that.. In a nutshell, it seems odd to me that if two guys have the same DX and HT, but one has Boxing-11 and the other has Boxing-20, they both have the same chance to defend with a Dodge, and the difference in skill ONLY shows up on a Parry. Or that someone who has been training Boxing for 8 months has the exact same chance of slipping a Right Cross as Floyd Mayweather. Ah well, no RPG can be perfect.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

A wise choice, padawan.

I'm actually quite pleased that there are a very few TG-specific questions (at least so far). If you have any, first check out The Grappling Mat over at my blog and see if you can find answers there, and if not, bring 'em on.

I've been excitedly consuming various bits of your blog since I read your reply. Excellent stuff, and cleared up a few of the other questions I had.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yeah, by and large you resolve them one at a time and have to react if your foe drops. That being said, nothing would break if you resolved them differently (all attacks, then all defenses, then damage) . . . but that isn't the assumption in the rules. Witness the discussion of Combinations in Martial Arts - Peter and Sean call out explicitly that if something disrupts the flow of the combo, it just ends with no recourse. And they are basically trained Rapid Strikes, and they're even priced that way.

That makes sense. What about Deceptive Attack with Rapid Strike? Do you have to take the DA penalty with both attacks, or can you have say the first attack be a Grapple the Torso with a bunch of DA and then the second attack be a Knee to the Groin with no DA?

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The box on MA p. 118 stipulates "if the grapple works and you hit the grappled location with a thrusting attack . . . " Technical Grappling doesn't overwrite that, so if you want to punch face, you have to grapple face, unless I state otherwise somewhere. You can usually spend CP from adjacent locations for grappling moves, but Grab and Smash is a strike, so if you want to punch the face, grapple the head (or neck).

The one exception to that is Grab the Torso and Knee the Groin, right? You can't exactly grapple the groin...

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

This is a case where realism is trumped (in the rules) by play balance, I think. Judo/Karate are Hard skills, so "parry weapons without penalty" is what they do.

Personally, I like your solution - and if you read Grabbing Parry (TG, p. 42) you'll see a lot of the modifiers address exactly the case you're describing.

Yup, I think I'm going to make that a house rule. If you want to barehanded parry a weapon swing attack, you have to step into Close Combat and parry the limbs.

I've looked at Grabbing Parry and realized you either have to have a very high skill for it to work, and you still can really only use it vs. Unarmed opponent.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I don't think anyone's got a rule for it. If you're not adverse to another roll, make a HT roll to see if you also fall prone. Another way to go would be if you fail the stun roll by X, you also fall prone.

Both of those are good. I think I'll stick to "Stun only unless Major Wound to Face, Eye, Skull, and maybe groin on males".


So I remembered another question we had from our playtest. If an NPC has been knocked unconscious from failing a HT roll after going into negative HP, is there anything special about a PC moving through the hex where the NPC's unconscious body is? Having to do an EVADE seems a little much, but maybe it should cost an extra movement point? Not sure, and I couldn't find any rules on that.

[Kuba]

Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC

I think I posted a pretty poor example with the video, so just forget that you all saw that.. In a nutshell, it seems odd to me that if two guys have the same DX and HT, but one has Boxing-11 and the other has Boxing-20, they both have the same chance to defend with a Dodge, and the difference in skill ONLY shows up on a Parry. Or that someone who has been training Boxing for 8 months has the exact same chance of slipping a Right Cross as Floyd Mayweather. Ah well, no RPG can be perfect.

Keep in mind that the guy with Boxing-20 probably has some points into Health and DX, increasing his base dodge, and the guy with Boxing-11 is taking telegraphic attacks just to have a chance of hitting the face.

Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC

That makes sense. What about Deceptive Attack with Rapid Strike? Do you have to take the DA penalty with both attacks, or can you have say the first attack be a Grapple the Torso with a bunch of DA and then the second attack be a Knee to the Groin with no DA?

Yeah, you could even add telegraphic to the knee, to signify "winding-up" the knee as you grapple the torso.

Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC

The one exception to that is Grab the Torso and Knee the Groin, right? You can't exactly grapple the groin...

You can actually grapple the groin. See Testicle Grab, on page 40 of Technical Grappling.

But as stated in Martial Arts, p. 118, a grapple to the torso suffices to Grab and Smash: the torso, vitals, groin or spine.

[EskrimadorNC]

Originally Posted by Kuba

Keep in mind that the guy with Boxing-20 probably has some points into Health and DX, increasing his base dodge, and the guy with Boxing-11 is taking telegraphic attacks just to have a chance of hitting the face.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the Boxing 20 and Boxing 11 guys are fighting each other.

And all other things being equal (Say DX 12, HT 12, BS 6, Dodge 9), both Boxers in the above example can dodge the punches from a JKD Guy (Karate-14) at the same exact chance for success:

Boxing-11 guy dodges on a 9 or lower (12 or lower on a retreat)
Boxing-20 guy dodges on a 9 or lower (12 or lower on a retreat)

I'll stop beating a dead horse now. It's basically outside the scope of GURPS. Non-contact defenses that are effective against strikes AND scale with skill level do not exist in this game. It's cool. I just have to come to terms with it.

Yeah, you could even add telegraphic to the knee, to signify "winding-up" the knee as you grapple the torso.

Gotcha. That's very good to know. It adds a lot of flexibility to Combos and rapid strikes.

You can actually grapple the groin. See Testicle Grab, on page 40 of Technical Grappling.

But as stated in Martial Arts, p. 118, a grapple to the torso suffices to Grab and Smash: the torso, vitals, groin or spine.

Thanks for the clarity. No clue how I missed that, but yeah, it all makes sense.

All in all, I think GURPS does a much better job of modeling real-world unarmed combat better than any other game system I've ever played. I'm very happy with how these rule sets work out.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC

And all other things being equal (Say DX 12, HT 12, BS 6, Dodge 9), both Boxers in the above example can dodge the punches from a JKD Guy (Karate-14) at the same exact chance for success:

Boxing-11 guy dodges on a 9 or lower (12 or lower on a retreat)
Boxing-20 guy dodges on a 9 or lower (12 or lower on a retreat)

However, Boxing - 20 guy can parry on a 13 without retreating. Keep in mind that what you call blocking in boxing would be a parry in GURPS terms, so, such an action is quite likely.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

However, Boxing - 20 guy can parry on a 13 without retreating. Keep in mind that what you call blocking in boxing would be a parry in GURPS terms, so, such an action is quite likely.

I get what he's saying though - he's looking for a way to have skill be reflected in the ability to just not be there to move (Dodge) around blows, rather than Parry. Bob and Weave - basically a trained skill.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I get what he's saying though - he's looking for a way to have skill be reflected in the ability to just not be there to move (Dodge) around blows, rather than Parry. Bob and Weave - basically a trained skill.

That would be reflected as buying Enhanced Dodge, and justifying it with the GM as being based on your training.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I get what he's saying though - he's looking for a way to have skill be reflected in the ability to just not be there to move (Dodge) around blows, rather than Parry. Bob and Weave - basically a trained skill.

I wonder if you could have a dodge skill derived from an unarmed skill? It doesn't LOOK like it would break anything right away.

Edit: Consider perhaps a Skill Adaptation perk. Something like Skill Adaptation ([Skill] Parries require no contact) and then treat it as a fencing parry for multiple parries. So the first is at -0, the second -2, the third -4, and so on. Trained by a Master shortens it to a mere -1 per parry after the first.

[Kuba]

Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC

I'll stop beating a dead horse now. It's basically outside the scope of GURPS. Non-contact defenses that are effective against strikes AND scale with skill level do not exist in this game. It's cool. I just have to come to terms with it.

There is one no-handed trained defence, called a "Hands-Free Parry" on p. 22 of Technical Grappling, which is similar to what you're looking for, except it's only meant to work against grappling. It probably wouldn't be too imbalanced to allow it against strikes, as it counts as a two handed parry (unlike boxing, karate and judo parries).

[scc]

*Bangs head*

The GURPS Skill Judo is ALL about throws, it isn't the RL martial arts of the same name, and has nothing to do with holding your opponent