GURPS MIDNIGHT Conversion

[The Cardinal]

Originally Posted by garyb

...but are you going to convert your conversion to 4th edition?

well, not within the next 8 weeks: my own booth at the Spiel '04, maybe Banestorm and Traveller: IW playtests, 3 new campaigns, new players, and work on my gigantic homebrew... But if *you* want to try to convert my conversion: hey, you're welcome!
;)

[garyb]

Originally Posted by The Cardinal

well, not within the next 8 weeks: my own booth at the Spiel '04, maybe Banestorm and Traveller: IW playtests, 3 new campaigns, new players, and work on my gigantic homebrew... But if *you* want to try to convert my conversion: hey, you're welcome!
;)

Thanks I think it'll at least give a head start... :)

[errant42]

After reading over the sample material and The Cardinal's 3e conversion, here are my initial thoughts:

1. Starting points, wealth, etc. If 150 + 100 disad was appropriate in 3e, I think 200 + 100 would be about right for 4e. I think the limitations on Heroic Paths can be dropped -- I feel that the points-based nature of GURPS should limit these adequately. A character who spends a lot of points on a Heroic Path will suffer in other areas (attributes, normal advantages, etc), and be balanced overall.

Wealth can probably stay the same ($1000, only 5% may be kept as coinage).

2. Templates. Racial template will obviously be a must, and I think class templates are a good idea to help establish an idea of what is typical and expected for different character types. The race templates in the conversion will obviously need to be updated to 4e, but otherwise seem good.

3. Magic. I'll probably wait for Magic 4e before I dive into any magic system too deeply. My general inclination is to use Umana rules, with a Normal mana level for most of the campaign world. I'd do away with most of the limitations in the conversion, but that's just general preference, and may change once I've read over the setting-specific d20 magic rules in the core book.

4. Heroic Paths. Here's where I'd do things quite a bit differently. Rather than break these into levelled advantages for 10 pts/level, I'd make each Heroic Path a seperate Unusual Background, costing perhaps 15-20 points. Each Path/UB would allow the character to purchase certain specific Exotic and Supernatural advantages that wouldn't be normally available to other characters. I wouldn't really limit how many of these advantages a character could buy, but I might make some prerequisite to others (e.g. a Fey-Blooded character must already have Night Vision to buy Dark Vision, etc). I would also allow them to be bought with earned CP.

5. New Advantages/Disadvantages. Covenant Items will require some attention ... they could be bought as signature gear, but the owner should be able to invest earned CP into making them more powerful. With the exception of Battle Rage, most of the other new traits are pretty well covered by 4e ... Defender Training = Trained by a Master, Weapon Master = Weapon Master, and so on.

For Battle Rage, I think building a Berserker template with bonuses to ST, HT, and certain inherent advantages and disadvantages, and then giving it to a character with the limitation: Costs Fatigue (perhaps 4/minute) would be appropriate.

[stilleon]

Originally Posted by errant42

1. Starting points, wealth, etc. If 150 + 100 disad was appropriate in 3e, I think 200 + 100 would be about right for 4e. I think the limitations on Heroic Paths can be dropped -- I feel that the points-based nature of GURPS should limit these adequately. A character who spends a lot of points on a Heroic Path will suffer in other areas (attributes, normal advantages, etc), and be balanced overall.

Agreed. I think this is the way to go.

Wealth can probably stay the same ($1000, only 5% may be kept as coinage).

I think that the baseline for the average wealth ought to be reduced to poor. The majority of the world is poor so it is worth no points. Anything above it is an advantage worth its value +15 (e.g. Struggling is worth 5 points, Average is worth 15 points, etc.) Dead Broke would become -10 points. The world of Midnight is TL3 thus the average starting money is a mere $200.

2. Templates. Racial template will obviously be a must, and I think class templates are a good idea to help establish an idea of what is typical and expected for different character types. The race templates in the conversion will obviously need to be updated to 4e, but otherwise seem good.

I don't know. They seemed very like each item from the racial description in Midnight was converted into a GURPS equivelent. They seem wrong. I would like to see these devised based on the the text descriptions and then those used to crate new templates.

3. Magic. I'll probably wait for Magic 4e before I dive into any magic system too deeply. My general inclination is to use Umana rules, with a Normal mana level for most of the campaign world. I'd do away with most of the limitations in the conversion, but that's just general preference, and may change once I've read over the setting-specific d20 magic rules in the core book.

I think that GURPS Magic is fine without Umana. I would add a rule that makes it easier for the enemy to sense magic use when the mana in a local area is pulled on directly. This would make the rules on B236 more interesting. While a mage may have a high enough skill level to reduce the FP cost of a spell by 1 or more, for each FP reduced he draws "...it from the surrounding mana rather than supplying it himself." If he does the chance of the enemy detecting it rises by +1 per point of reduced FP when casting. Most knowledgeable casters will avoid doing this because of the dangers but in emergencies they have the choice.

4. Heroic Paths. Here's where I'd do things quite a bit differently. Rather than break these into levelled advantages for 10 pts/level, I'd make each Heroic Path a seperate Unusual Background, costing perhaps 15-20 points. Each Path/UB would allow the character to purchase certain specific Exotic and Supernatural advantages that wouldn't be normally available to other characters. I wouldn't really limit how many of these advantages a character could buy, but I might make some prerequisite to others (e.g. a Fey-Blooded character must already have Night Vision to buy Dark Vision, etc). I would also allow them to be bought with earned CP.

I too abhor a levelled list of advantages. That is too d20 for me. I like your idea a lot. I don't really dig prerequisites in this case. Dark Vision is better than Night Vision so just buy Dark Vision and allow an upgrade later.

I might suggest that supernatural advantages (ones that no-one outside of our Heroic Path) might be full price while more common advantages like Combat Relflexes, if covered under your Heroic Path, should get a discount of 20%.

[stilleon]

Probably will need some equipment deterioration system. I think Midnight has that.

[errant42]

Originally Posted by stilleon

I think that the baseline for the average wealth ought to be reduced to poor. The majority of the world is poor so it is worth no points. Anything above it is an advantage worth its value +15 (e.g. Struggling is worth 5 points, Average is worth 15 points, etc.) Dead Broke would become -10 points. The world of Midnight is TL3 thus the average starting money is a mere $200.

That makes sense. And it would reduce the need to adjust prices as had been done in the 3e conversion. Sounds good to me.

I don't know. They seemed very like each item from the racial description in Midnight was converted into a GURPS equivelent. They seem wrong. I would like to see these devised based on the the text descriptions and then those used to crate new templates.

Well, I should be getting the book before too long -- it's nowhere to be found around here, so I ordered it on Amazon. Once I've had a chance to read through it, I'll have a more informed and qualified opinion.

I think that GURPS Magic is fine without Umana. I would add a rule that makes it easier for the enemy to sense magic use when the mana in a local area is pulled on directly. This would make the rules on B236 more interesting. While a mage may have a high enough skill level to reduce the FP cost of a spell by 1 or more, for each FP reduced he draws "...it from the surrounding mana rather than supplying it himself." If he does the chance of the enemy detecting it rises by +1 per point of reduced FP when casting. Most knowledgeable casters will avoid doing this because of the dangers but in emergencies they have the choice.

That's an interesting idea, though it will make magic significantly less powerful on the average -- at least for the Good Guys. I suppose that's in keeping with what I know of the setting.

I agree that we'll do the conversion without Umana ... I prefer it, but I know that not everyone does. That's part of the beauty of it -- it can be switched out for standard GURPS magic in just about any campaign, without much trouble at all.

I have heard it mentioned that in the d20 version, non-mages can use feats or something to learn spells ... how does this work, or more importantly, how might it translate? Should non-mages be able to cast spells, as in the conversion? Should it be a High Mana setting? Should this be a manifestation of Magery 0?

I too abhor a levelled list of advantages. That is too d20 for me. I like your idea a lot. I don't really dig prerequisites in this case. Dark Vision is better than Night Vision so just buy Dark Vision and allow an upgrade later.

I might suggest that supernatural advantages (ones that no-one outside of our Heroic Path) might be full price while more common advantages like Combat Relflexes, if covered under your Heroic Path, should get a discount of 20%.

That seems appropriate ... it would make an Heroic Path a very defining trait of a character (strongly influencing what advantages s/he takes), but without being so limiting as a class.

Probably will need some equipment deterioration system. I think Midnight has that.

Hmm... isn't there one Low-Tech? I'll check and see when I have a moment to dig it out. If not, it should be easy enough to house-rule one together from the damage to objects rules in 4e Campaigns.

[stilleon]

Originally Posted by errant42

I agree that we'll do the conversion without Umana ... I prefer it, but I know that not everyone does.

Actually I think Umana rocks as well. One of S. John Ross' finest creations. I don't think it matches Midnight, although, you are right, it is a good variant to use in a Midnight game. But let's keep it a variant.

I have heard it mentioned that in the d20 version, non-mages can use feats or something to learn spells ... how does this work, or more importantly, how might it translate? Should non-mages be able to cast spells, as in the conversion? Should it be a High Mana setting? Should this be a manifestation of Magery 0?

The way I remember it (my friend has the main book and I will get it back from him... BTW, it is already very GURPS like with a binding problem) anyone can learn magic and the Mage class (whatever it is called) can learn them far better. I think that it works okay to say that anyone can learn a spell without a Magery prerequisite. Anyone with Magery would learn better spells and can be analogous to the (whatever it was called) mage like class in Midnight. Why doesn't everyone learn low level spells: cuz that will get you killed.

[Eljay451]

Originally Posted by stilleon

Why doesn't everyone learn low level spells: cuz that will get you killed.

Discworld RPG (powered by GURPS) is a high mana world, with this explanation.

Mages (who have Magery advantage) can see magic - see the "color of magic" octarine. Non-mages (those without the Magery advantage) cannot see what they are doing.

The non-mage is analogous to having a blind guy drive a car. Sure, the blind guy can drive it. And he may be able to get where he wants to go (albeit, much more slowly). But it sure is dangerous, even if there a sighted "back seat driver" helping.

[errant42]

Originally Posted by Eljay451

Discworld RPG (powered by GURPS) is a high mana world, with this explanation.

Mages (who have Magery advantage) can see magic - see the "color of magic" octarine. Non-mages (those without the Magery advantage) cannot see what they are doing.

The non-mage is analogous to having a blind guy drive a car. Sure, the blind guy can drive it. And he may be able to get where he wants to go (albeit, much more slowly). But it sure is dangerous, even if there a sighted "back seat driver" helping.

I like that way of looking at it ... how is that aspect modelled in GURPS Discworld?

I was getting from Midnight website intro that magic was an integral part of the world, and that the anti-mana stones (whatever they were called) were something that had never been seen or thought of before. The narrator of their little intro story was cast out of evlen society for rejecting magic, implying that magic was a large and integral part of elven life at least.

[Eljay451]

Originally Posted by errant42

I like that way of looking at it ... how is that aspect modelled in GURPS Discworld?

Mages, typically, don't/won't teach non-mages magic spells.

Just like sighted people in the real world typically don't/won't teach blind people to drive. High risk, high liability, no reward ... and puts one's reputation on the line.