Impossible to Subdue?

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by GURPS page 118

For instance, "automatically makes all normal Vision rolls" is about as useful as "automatically makes all Fright Checks," so you might price that ability along the lines of Unfazeable, for 15 points.

Acute Vision costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Vision rolls.
Automatically makes all normal Vision rolls is suggested to cost 15 points.

Fearlessness costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Fright Checks.
Automatically makes all Fright Checks (Unfazable) costs 15 points.

Hard to Subdue costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Consciousness rolls.
Would it be reasonable for “automatically makes all Consciousness rolls” to cost 15 points?

In the case of “Knockdown and Stunning” it would make you immune to the effects of “a failure by 5 or more, or any critical failure”. As for Hazards, you’d be immune to Comas and Unconsciousness (maybe Sleep, as it’s listed under Hard to Subdue, under Advantages that Aid Resistance, Powers page 169), the same way Injury Tolerance: No Vitals makes you immune to Heart Attacks.

[laserdog]

My biggest worry about an "automatic" hard to subdue is that the rules for someone falling unconscious from their wounds (making consciousness checks) sort of imply that, "you'll eventually fail them, even if you have HT 16".

Vision and Fright aren't even tied to that "roll til you fail" sort of mechanic.

It may be different from a "balance" perspective to give a character the ability to walk around at below 0 HP for hours at a time...

However, I suppose 10 pt Recovery does very nearly the same thing. Just with the person falling unconscious, waking up almost immediately, only to fall unconscious again... That sort of stumbling critically injured character like that makes sense to me.

In any case, between all the "Immunity to Common" [15] and "Recovery [10]" 15 pts definitely seems to be in "the ballpark" for that ability.

[Rowan]

Immunity to being subdued? I don't know. I'm not sure many people would want that for their character. Wouldn't it sort of make them like those psycho killers we used to see in the slasher films in the 80's? The fellows you had to just chop into a million bits to kill?

Seems kind of a scary advantage to have. Once your enemies find out about it. I have this horrible image of a character with immunity to subdual being held down by three strong body guards while a four stabs you again..and again...and again...and again...and again....and again....and again....

Until your body finally gives up and dies. All while being awake, and hm..would immunity to subdual include not being able to be stunned? Wouldn't that make you unable to experience shock?

So while the fellow to the left feels the first stab and then shock takes over...you get the privelage of feeling each and every stab as if it were the first. Over and over and over again, until your body just 'gives' out and you die. All the while being awake.

All for 15 points? Sounds like the perfect advantage to torture a character with. XD

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Immunity to being subdued? I don't know. I'm not sure many people would want that for their character. Wouldn't it sort of make them like those psycho killers we used to see in the slasher films in the 80's? The fellows you had to just chop into a million bits to kill?

I'd take it in a jiffy. If you have regular combat in your game, not having to roll each second to stay conscious when in negative 0 HT is extremely useful.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

I'd take it in a jiffy. If you have regular combat in your game, not having to roll each second to stay conscious when in negative 0 HT is extremely useful.

Oh, no argument on that point. It just seems like that drawback could be pretty horrific. :D

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Until your body finally gives up and dies. All while being awake, and hm..would immunity to subdual include not being able to be stunned? Wouldn't that make you unable to experience shock?

No, I don't think, Hard to Subdue includes protection from Stunning or Shock. While it protects you from the possible unconsciousness that could result from things like a Major Wound, I don't think it should simply add its bonus to the whole roll, as it would make you hard to Knockdown as well, which is not in the spirit of the Advantage, I think.

Instead, I treat it as an effective bonus, but only for the purpose of telling if you have failed by 5 or Critically Failed.

Besides this - relatively minor - point: No, I don't think that 15 points is balanced for this Advantage. I'd be much more inclined to give a character 5 levels, making it virtually impossible to knock them out.
Combined with my House Rule (Critical Success on a roll to stay conscious means you don't have to roll again unless you are injured further, just like having recovered from unconsciousness), they may well stay awake a LONG time. Just changing their chance of a Critical Success from 4 to 6 (or potentially even more, if you use expanded Crits) will make it much more likely they'll Critically Succeed than fail.

That, plus Recovery (20 points all up), will keep someone really hard to keep down.
You could still describe them as never losing consciousness, as "unconscious" specifically includes the possibility of "totally incapacitated by pain and injury" (p.423).
For a robot or zombie or such, they could just be staggered for a minute by their injuries.

Which raises the point: Does Hard to Subdue include a bonus to recover from unconsciousness? I'd say yes; which means that - even if you beat this person down to where a normal person would be knocked out, they'll just fall down, unmoving, for a minute, then get back up.
Even if they're beaten to the point that someone will die, they'll still almost certainly rise in 12 minutes.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Acute Vision costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Vision rolls.
Automatically makes all normal Vision rolls is suggested to cost 15 points.

Fearlessness costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Fright Checks.
Automatically makes all Fright Checks (Unfazable) costs 15 points.

Hard to Subdue costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Consciousness rolls.
Would it be reasonable for “automatically makes all Consciousness rolls” to cost 15 points?

So... What would the 15 pt version of Hard to Kill be like? A limited version of Unkillable ? The analogy seems to break, here.

[rintropy]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

So... What would the 15 pt version of Hard to Kill be like? A limited version of Unkillable ? The analogy seems to break, here.

I think that it might be the analogy that's broken, not the mechanic.

I recommend comparing other "Hard to..." advantages, and see the effects they provide.

Basically, all these things give bonuses to die rolls. They don't negate the purpose behind the die rolls. By your very argument, using the Vision example, "Automatically makes all vision rolls" would be equivalent to Dark Vision for ten fewer points, since the maximum darkness penalty is -10.

Of course, these elements are deliberately vague, and it's a very slippery slope. I would expect the "oh, you've got to be reasonable" to come next. Well, I am being reasonable. What does it matter what the penalty is from? My character automatically makes all vision rolls. There's no mention of darkness, haze, fog, having my head in a burlap sack...

Much like pooping, everybody passes out. If you don't, it's because you've taken the equivalent of Doesn't Sleep and Doesn't Breathe... perhaps because you're playing a game where that's OK.

(I stopped making these arguments many years ago under threat of physical violence--that is unlikely here, ergo...)

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by laserdog

My biggest worry about an "automatic" hard to subdue is that the rules for someone falling unconscious from their wounds (making consciousness checks) sort of imply that, "you'll eventually fail them, even if you have HT 16".

Vision and Fright aren't even tied to that "roll til you fail" sort of mechanic.

How so? If you make enough of them, you will fail eventually.

Originally Posted by laserdog

However, I suppose 10 pt Recovery does very nearly the same thing. Just with the person falling unconscious, waking up almost immediately, only to fall unconscious again... That sort of stumbling critically injured character like that makes sense to me.

Not really, if you’re at -1XHP or below, it would take 12 minutes and you’d only get one HT roll, fail that and you’re unconscious and rolling every 12 hours to not die.

Originally Posted by laserdog

In any case, between all the "Immunity to Common" [15] and "Recovery [10]" 15 pts definitely seems to be in "the ballpark" for that ability.

Now that you mention it, Resistance might be the way to go: Resistance to Subdual +8 [15] is approximately equal to 8 levels of Hard to Subdue [16], so Immunity to Unconsciousness would be [30]? Sound reasonable?

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Immunity to being subdued? I don't know. I'm not sure many people would want that for their character. Wouldn't it sort of make them like those psycho killers we used to see in the slasher films in the 80's? The fellows you had to just chop into a million bits to kill?

Seems kind of a scary advantage to have. Once your enemies find out about it. I have this horrible image of a character with immunity to subdual being held down by three strong body guards while a four stabs you again..and again...and again...and again...and again....and again....and again....

Until your body finally gives up and dies. All while being awake, and hm..would immunity to subdual include not being able to be stunned? Wouldn't that make you unable to experience shock?

So while the fellow to the left feels the first stab and then shock takes over...you get the privelage of feeling each and every stab as if it were the first. Over and over and over again, until your body just 'gives' out and you die. All the while being awake.

All for 15 points? Sounds like the perfect advantage to torture a character with. XD

True, but you can get the same effect with a high level of Regeneration and Recovery, but that's not a reason not to take them.