Old-School D&D style game

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Pomphis

This is a 1,005 point character with no attribute at 20...

I think I mentioned upthread that I'm having no trouble imagining a caster spending all those points. There are a lot of spells to buy, for starters! I'm having more trouble with the more mundane types (Scout, Swashbuckler, Thief, etc.).

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Multi-classing with other Lenses, perhaps?

Yes, I thought of that. But if I'm going to run a game like this and have people make 1000 point characters, then I don't want them to HAVE to multi-class. But maybe the mundane templates will need to...

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Yes, I thought of that. But if I'm going to run a game like this and have people make 1000 point characters, then I don't want them to HAVE to multi-class. But maybe the mundane templates will need to...

Having played a 1000-point archer (granted in a superhero game rather than DF), I can tell you that imbuement skills help keep the Scout up to par with wizard types without actually being "multi-class" types at that level. Knight also benefits from imbuements; not sure about Thief.

And don't forget certain types of gear. A Thief with a ring of invisibility can be quite useful.

My biggest question is, in the 1000-2000 point spread, what exactly are you going up against? Demigods? Cthulhu?

[Kromm]

Remember that suitably steep Unusual Background costs can make any budget seem modest! I've met GMs who charged human PCs a 100-point premium per DX, IQ, or HT level past 20. Then there are things like Unusual Background (Demigod) at several hundred points in return for access to powerful exotic and supernatural advantages off a suitably fantasy-themed list. If the only way to get Burning Attack 10d [50] or any Telekinesis at all is to be the bastard offspring of a god for 500 points, then players will pay it.

Taking that last point further, it's common enough to let delvers evolve into fantasy-themed supers – not via mutations and super-sera, but through the effects of divine, magical, and cosmic forces. Again, the GM probably won't be handing out unlimited access, but even sticking to what suits myth, a cleric with Super Luck 3 (Alter Reality, +75%; Wishing, +100%) [825] is pretty powerful . . . and needs a lot of points! Ditto a wizard with Snatcher (Creation, +100%; Large Items, +50%; More Weight, 100 lbs., +40%; Permanent, +300%) [472], who can do the classic "snap my fingers and make stuff appear" trick.

Even without super-powers, going well beyond sane limits on open-ended abilities is a thing. A 2,000-point warrior may actually be able to have up to ST 50 [400], DX 30 [400], HT 20 [100], HP 200 [300], Basic Speed 20.00 [150], and Basic Move 30 [50] among his abilities, and go around one-shotting multiple dragons per turn with a big stack of Extra Attacks. A mega-wizard or mega-cleric might just be able to cast permanent Alter Body or Resurrection casually with Energy Reserve 200 or 300 [600 or 900].

The GM of such madness really has to reimagine what "dungeon fantasy" means, but it isn't all that far from the highest reaches of old-school FRPGs. I imagine that a few of us here remember groups that included clerics who could resurrect on demand, fighters who could one-shot giants, and wizards who could cast multiple Time Stop and Wish spells . . . taking on demon lords and gods just to slaughter them and take their stuff. Such PCs had typically used scads of wishes to ratchet a few attributes up to 25 on the old 3-18 scale, which was That Other Game's code for "as good as you can get," which in an open-ended game like GURPS might correspond to, say, a DX or IQ of 30 or 50 or 100.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Kromm

. . . taking on demon lords and gods just to slaughter them and take their stuff.

I know a group that has summoned and killed Yeenoghu, Demon Lord of Gnolls, three times, at the appropriate intervals for his recovering the ability to visit the material world. The first time it was an accident and they had a very tough time of it. The second time, it was a planned part of a war. The third time was on stage, having sold tickets.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember that suitably steep Unusual Background costs can make any budget seem modest! I've met GMs who charged human PCs a 100-point premium per DX, IQ, or HT level past 20. Then there are things like Unusual Background (Demigod) at several hundred points in return for access to powerful exotic and supernatural advantages off a suitably fantasy-themed list. If the only way to get Burning Attack 10d [50] or any Telekinesis at all is to be the bastard offspring of a god for 500 points, then players will pay it.

That's helpful. I thought of charging Unusual Background costs for going above race/template maximum, although I was thinking 10 points/level...but having big, huge UBs that open up crazy abilities is a good idea that for some reason escaped me.

Even without super-powers, going well beyond sane limits on open-ended abilities is a thing. A 2,000-point warrior may actually be able to have up to ST 50 [400], DX 30 [400], HT 20 [100], HP 200 [300], Basic Speed 20.00 [150], and Basic Move 30 [50] among his abilities...

Because GURPS is more concrete than DnD, I have more trouble imagining what this looks like. For some reason, the high level of abstraction of DnD made it so that I thought of a 20th level fighter as really good at fighting without imagining that he's swinging a sword nine times a second, moving the speed of a motorcycle on a highway, etc.

The GM of such madness really has to reimagine what "dungeon fantasy" means, but it isn't all that far from the highest reaches of old-school FRPGs. I imagine that a few of us here remember groups that included clerics who could resurrect on demand, fighters who could one-shot giants, and wizards who could cast multiple Time Stop and Wish spells . . . taking on demon lords and gods just to slaughter them and take their stuff.

Yes, that's exactly why I asked this question here (and hijacked the thread a bit--sorry, OP). I remember what very "high-level" characters looked like in AD&D 2nd Edition, the game of my childhood, and I was trying to recreate that feeling.

Such PCs had typically used scads of wishes to ratchet a few attributes up to 25 on the old 3-18 scale, which was That Other Game's code for "as good as you can get," which in an open-ended game like GURPS might correspond to, say, a DX or IQ of 30 or 50 or 100.

Maybe it's because I was young, but I don't recall having the same issues with high DnD attributes that I have with high GURPS attributes. Again, I think it's because GURPS is so clear about what you can achieve with a DX of 30 or a ST of 50. I realize that even 250-point DF characters are utterly unrealistic, but I at least feel I can imagine them in a fictional universe. I'm not sure what GURPS HP 200 would even look like, while DnD HPs include GURPS's defenses, HP, and to some extent HT, so I was able to kind of gloss it over and just think of all the numbers only relative to each other.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Ok, I have no trouble imagining a caster at that level, since you could always use more ER, higher Magery, etc. I still can't imagine a fighter-type, unless everyone's buying attributes into the 30s, skills into the 50s, etc.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Multi-classing with other Lenses, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Gnome

Yes, I thought of that. But if I'm going to run a game like this and have people make 1000 point characters, then I don't want them to HAVE to multi-class. But maybe the mundane templates will need to...

Originally Posted by Gnome

I think I mentioned upthread that I'm having no trouble imagining a caster spending all those points. There are a lot of spells to buy, for starters! I'm having more trouble with the more mundane types (Scout, Swashbuckler, Thief, etc.).

I wouldn't say that anyone in my game has felt that he was required to 'multi-class' as such, if his original concept didn't call for it.

Sir Michael Carragher* was conceived as a warrior with some wilderness survival, mountaineering and archery. In D&D terms, he would probably have been a Fighter with a level of Ranger or something. In Dungeon Fantasy terms, a junior Knight with maybe a lens for Scout or Barbarian.

This was back when he was a tall but gangling 150 point tyro swordsman who went to the Big City for the first time and met his cousin Murlak, launching their famous adventuring careers.

Murlak Solstice, meanwhile, was a young, but promising swashbuckling rogue and con man who belonged to the Thieves' Guild in the city. In D&D terms, most certainly a Rogue or Thief, depending on edition. In Dungeon Fantasy terms, either a Thief or the Rogue from Pyramid #64.

Some 1,200+ points later, Sir Michael Carrager is still, in D&D terms, a Fighter with a level or two of Ranger. He is an accredited knight, has followers, owns land where he is building a castle and settling farmers and villagers and he's marrying a titled noblewoman, but he remains a recognisable Knight in DF terms and a Fighter in D&D terms.

Murlak Solstice is most certainly still a Rogue or Thief, but if we were to imagine him in terms of D&D multi-classing, we might find some Prestige Classes to model his swashbuckling fencing and command of a privateer ship** (Duellist? Swashbuckler? Dread Pirate?) and his plutocratic power in the setting (Merchant Prince).

That points out a tendency of high-level play, actually. A Warrior, Fighter or Knight can remain a Warrior, Fighter or Knight at high power-levels, but should probably aim to become a general, condottieri, warlord or feudal lord as well, something to allow him to lead other men into battle. A Thief or Rogue would do well to become a more subtle mover-and-shaker in the world, either in the underworld, the legitimate business world or both.

*Who oringally went by the name Brash Mickey and still answers to that in private.
**As well as, ah, that whole 'secret pirate alter ego' and command of a pirate fleet after defeating their previous pirate lord.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Gnome

[snip] I'm not sure what GURPS HP 200 would even look like [snip]

Here's what GURPS HP 100 looks like:

GM: Tactical Teddybear rolls against Guns (Rocket Launcher) and gets... an eight! He gets a direct hit unless Santa dodges... with an eleven! Fail! A fiery explosion blows enormous chunks out of Santa's torso. Roll damage!

PLAYERS: [general cheering]

GM: You seem to have finally inflicted a Major Wound! Santa's facial expression appears somewhat distracted, and he rolls HT vs Stun+Knockdown... with a fourteen! He's still on his feet!

PLAYERS: [general looks of bewildered disbelief]

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I wouldn't say that anyone in my game has felt that he was required to 'multi-class' as such, if his original concept didn't call for it.

Sir Michael Carragher* was conceived as a warrior with some wilderness survival, mountaineering and archery. In D&D terms, he would probably have been a Fighter with a level of Ranger or something. In Dungeon Fantasy terms, a junior Knight with maybe a lens for Scout or Barbarian.

This was back when he was a tall but gangling 150 point tyro swordsman who went to the Big City for the first time and met his cousin Murlak, launching their famous adventuring careers.

Murlak Solstice, meanwhile, was a young, but promising swashbuckling rogue and con man who belonged to the Thieves' Guild in the city. In D&D terms, most certainly a Rogue or Thief, depending on edition. In Dungeon Fantasy terms, either a Thief or the Rogue from Pyramid #64.

Some 1,200+ points later, Sir Michael Carrager is still, in D&D terms, a Fighter with a level or two of Ranger. He is an accredited knight, has followers, owns land where he is building a castle and settling farmers and villagers and he's marrying a titled noblewoman, but he remains a recognisable Knight in DF terms and a Fighter in D&D terms.

Murlak Solstice is most certainly still a Rogue or Thief, but if we were to imagine him in terms of D&D multi-classing, we might find some Prestige Classes to model his swashbuckling fencing and command of a privateer ship** (Duellist? Swashbuckler? Dread Pirate?) and his plutocratic power in the setting (Merchant Prince).

That points out a tendency of high-level play, actually. A Warrior, Fighter or Knight can remain a Warrior, Fighter or Knight at high power-levels, but should probably aim to become a general, condottieri, warlord or feudal lord as well, something to allow him to lead other men into battle. A Thief or Rogue would do well to become a more subtle mover-and-shaker in the world, either in the underworld, the legitimate business world or both.

*Who oringally went by the name Brash Mickey and still answers to that in private.
**As well as, ah, that whole 'secret pirate alter ego' and command of a pirate fleet after defeating their previous pirate lord.

It sounds like you're talking about their significant social advantages, but earlier you seemed to be saying you weren't even counting those towards the 1000 points. Of course DF doesn't really consider social advantages (other than Ally)...but I could see how huge levels of Reputation, Wealth, large groups of Allies, etc. might add up to a lot.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Here's what GURPS HP 100 looks like:

Actually, now that I think about it, it was only 80 in that example. 200 HP is kind of a lot.