Old-School D&D style game

[weby]

I am currently running a long term "DF-style" campaign where we have had so far 173 gaming sessions with normal length of about 9 hours.

The campaign started with 100 point characters and the characters are now almost 2000 points.

What I found was that at least my players appreciate fairly rapid advancement as it gives a feeling of character developing, So I am basically giving 1 point/hour of play+some extra bonus points.

I did find that the Gurps default magic system does not scale well to high points, as it becomes a game of:
fire away as many as possible tries of "save or you lose"-spells, preferably as low as possible cost so you can repeat them many times. Things like:
Sleep: 4 FP and allows a free kill.
Sickness: 3 FP. But the enemy can still run away just not fight.
Basically when a lot of the enemies have saves close to 16, the mage will mostly need defenses to survive and as many as possible tries for the enemy to roll badly and lose.

Other parts of the system do not break at higher points, but actually scale fairly well. (Of course some parts of the system like the sense rolls and stealth are broken from the start...)

The 100 point characters definitely felt like "1st level":ish and the current 1900 point characters feel like maybe "15th-20th level":ish in personal power.

The starting skills were in the 10-14 range, where even the basic actions often failed. Currently the best skills are slightly above 40, with a lot of skills in the 30s, where a mere -10 is a low penalty.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by weby

I am currently running a long term "DF-style" campaign where we have had so far 173 gaming sessions with normal length of about 9 hours.

The campaign started with 100 point characters and the characters are now almost 2000 points.

What I found was that at least my players appreciate fairly rapid advancement as it gives a feeling of character developing, So I am basically giving 1 point/hour of play+some extra bonus points.

I did find that the Gurps default magic system does not scale well to high points, as it becomes a game of:
fire away as many as possible tries of "save or you lose"-spells, preferably as low as possible cost so you can repeat them many times. Things like:
Sleep: 4 FP and allows a free kill.
Sickness: 3 FP. But the enemy can still run away just not fight.
Basically when a lot of the enemies have saves close to 16, the mage will mostly need defenses to survive and as many as possible tries for the enemy to roll badly and lose.

Other parts of the system do not break at higher points, but actually scale fairly well. (Of course some parts of the system like the sense rolls and stealth are broken from the start...)

The 100 point characters definitely felt like "1st level":ish and the current 1900 point characters feel like maybe "15th-20th level":ish in personal power.

The starting skills were in the 10-14 range, where even the basic actions often failed. Currently the best skills are slightly above 40, with a lot of skills in the 30s, where a mere -10 is a low penalty.

How does a DF character spend 2000 points? Buying all attributes to 20 only costs 600 points, and buying a few skills to 40 or so is only another 80-ish per skill, so where do the other 1000 or more points go? I ask because I've been fiddling around with creating a "DF supers" type 1000 point game, but I have no idea what kinds of very expensive power-ups a Swashbuckler (for example) would buy...

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Gnome

How does a DF character spend 2000 points? Buying all attributes to 20 only costs 600 points, and buying a few skills to 40 or so is only another 80-ish per skill, so where do the other 1000 or more points go? I ask because I've been fiddling around with creating a "DF supers" type 1000 point game, but I have no idea what kinds of very expensive power-ups a Swashbuckler (for example) would buy...

Something tells me attributes are going above 20 by that point.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Another idea floated about has been to make a metatrait bundling a vow to fight unarmed and another to fight unarmoured (which is a pretty BIG problem in DF, even more so than real life what with the toxic goop, acid-skinned slimes, man-eating swarms, and so forth). You'd combine them with... something (the suggestion I've seen is the Imbue advantage, possibly limiting it to folks with those disadvantages and even applying Pact to boot).

Ideall, the combined Pact of No Weapons and No Worn Armour should act as a Power Modifier on a bunch of advantages, such as lots of Striking ST, Enhanced Dodge, DR with a Conscious/Aware Only Limitation (to represent actively rolling with blows) and so forth.

In fact given that some of those levelled traits are quite cheap themselves, Stroking ST Limited to Unarmed Only, and levels of Hard To Kill (as well as severely Limited levels of DR), it might be possible to gather all of them into a (levelled) Meta-Trait so that the Pact PM can more fully be applied to them. But that might be a bit cheesey, and even if it's not deemed cheesy it's very important not to apply the PM twice. For a typical PM little damage is done but I imagine this PM is going to be -25% or thereabouts.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gnome

How does a DF character spend 2000 points? Buying all attributes to 20 only costs 600 points, and buying a few skills to 40 or so is only another 80-ish per skill, so where do the other 1000 or more points go? I ask because I've been fiddling around with creating a "DF supers" type 1000 point game, but I have no idea what kinds of very expensive power-ups a Swashbuckler (for example) would buy...

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Something tells me attributes are going above 20 by that point.

Well, my DF-ish characters are around* 1,500 points or so and none of them have Attributes higher than 20 without magical effects. Granted, they have easy access to potions, spells and magical items that often give them +3 or more to multiple traits for a given combat, but none have bought an Attribute at such a high level.

I do impose an Unusual Background cost for exceeding racial norms in the campaign, which absent a racial modifier are 15 for all Attributes except ST, which can be 20.

The UB ranges from a 1-point Special Exercises Perk for plausible Secondary Attributes (or what amount to sub-Attrubutes, e.g. Lifting ST) raised by a couple of levels as part of a Style to a gradually increasing 5-20 point Unusual Background per level of Attribute above racial maxima.

I have a couple of PCs with IQ, Per and/or Will 16 and one with DX 17, but none higher. I expect to see further gradual increases, but fairly slow, as there are always other power-ups to get, skills to improve and niche-specific awesome stuff to get more awesome at.

2,000 points barely covers a truly powerful wizard or priest in my setting. The PCs are mostly warriors or rogues with a few supernatural tricks, maybe a smattering of spellcasting ability. None of them have the Magery/Power Investiture 7+, Energy Reserve 300+ and hundreds of points of Modular Ability as well as hundreds of learned spells needed to truly rank among the great spellcasters of the setting.


*Since the winning of Wealth, fame (Reputation), social position and influence (Status, Allies, Contacts, Favors, etc.) is kind of the point of the game, I don't charge points for loot, earnings, investments, friends made, allegiances made and such, but instead track such things as part of the game world and the PCs' ongoing impact on it. The GCA write-ups of the PCs accordingly lack the appropriate Wealth level for their astronomical levels of loot, awesome magic items and legions of loyal followers. Only relationships that the players deliberatly spent earned points on to get a meta-game insurance from betrayal or imperfect memories for prior favours are counted in the 'official' point values of PCs, which range from 1,050 to just over 1,260. All the same, I think their Wealth and magic gear alone is worth 300+ points above that and a case could be made for adding at least 500 points in Wealth and other social and influence traits to the main PCs.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, my DF-ish characters are around* 1,500 points or so and none of them have Attributes higher than 20 without magical effects. Granted, they have easy access to potions, spells and magical items that often give them +3 or more to multiple traits for a given combat, but none have bought an Attribute at such a high level.

I do impose an Unusual Background cost for exceeding racial norms in the campaign, which absent a racial modifier are 15 for all Attributes except ST, which can be 20.

The UB ranges from a 1-point Special Exercises Perk for plausible Secondary Attributes (or what amount to sub-Attrubutes, e.g. Lifting ST) raised by a couple of levels as part of a Style to a gradually increasing 5-20 point Unusual Background per level of Attribute above racial maxima.

I have a couple of PCs with IQ, Per and/or Will 16 and one with DX 17, but none higher. I expect to see further gradual increases, but fairly slow, as there are always other power-ups to get, skills to improve and niche-specific awesome stuff to get more awesome at.

2,000 points barely covers a truly powerful wizard or priest in my setting. The PCs are mostly warriors or rogues with a few supernatural tricks, maybe a smattering of spellcasting ability. None of them have the Magery/Power Investiture 7+, Energy Reserve 300+ and hundreds of points of Modular Ability as well as hundreds of learned spells needed to truly rank among the great spellcasters of the setting.


*Since the winning of Wealth, fame (Reputation), social position and influence (Status, Allies, Contacts, Favors, etc.) is kind of the point of the game, I don't charge points for loot, earnings, investments, friends made, allegiances made and such, but instead track such things as part of the game world and the PCs' ongoing impact on it. The GCA write-ups of the PCs accordingly lack the appropriate Wealth level for their astronomical levels of loot, awesome magic items and legions of loyal followers. Only relationships that the players deliberatly spent earned points on to get a meta-game insurance from betrayal or imperfect memories for prior favours are counted in the 'official' point values of PCs, which range from 1,050 to just over 1,260. All the same, I think their Wealth and magic gear alone is worth 300+ points above that and a case could be made for adding at least 500 points in Wealth and other social and influence traits to the main PCs.

Ok, I have no trouble imagining a caster at that level, since you could always use more ER, higher Magery, etc. I still can't imagine a fighter-type, unless everyone's buying attributes into the 30s, skills into the 50s, etc.

[Bruno]

Buying every single power-up in Dungeon Fantasy (from the core PDFs to the Pyramid articles) - they'll keep you plenty busy enough.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Buying every single power-up in Dungeon Fantasy (from the core PDFs to the Pyramid articles) - they'll keep you plenty busy enough.

I don't have most of the pyramids, but buying every swashbuckler power-up in DF11 is only going to cost about 250 points or so. That added to ~500 for attributes and ~100 or so for skills still isn't adding up to 1000, never mind 2000. And if I want people to make 1000 point DF characters and not have every character look identical, there should at least be some options (in other words, not every Swashbuckler should look exactly the same). I'm not sure how high-powered or expensive these pyramid power-ups are, but I don't see them making much of a dent in a 1000 point budget...

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I don't have most of the pyramids, but buying every swashbuckler power-up in DF11 is only going to cost about 250 points or so. That added to ~500 for attributes and ~100 or so for skills still isn't adding up to 1000, never mind 2000. And if I want people to make 1000 point DF characters and not have every character look identical, there should at least be some options (in other words, not every Swashbuckler should look exactly the same). I'm not sure how high-powered or expensive these pyramid power-ups are, but I don't see them making much of a dent in a 1000 point budget...

Multi-classing with other Lenses, perhaps?

[Pomphis]

Originally Posted by Gnome

How does a DF character spend 2000 points? Buying all attributes to 20 only costs 600 points, and buying a few skills to 40 or so is only another 80-ish per skill, so where do the other 1000 or more points go? I ask because I've been fiddling around with creating a "DF supers" type 1000 point game, but I have no idea what kinds of very expensive power-ups a Swashbuckler (for example) would buy...

This is a 1,005 point character with no attribute at 20:

ST 11 (10) DX 14 (80) IQ 17 (140) HT 14 (40)

Will 17 (0) Perception 17 (0) HP 11 (0) Fatigue 14 (0) Fatigue (Magic Only) 9 (27)

Basic Lift: 24 lb Basic Speed: 7 Move: 7 Dodge: 11 Swing Damage: 1d+1 Thrust Damage: 1d-1

Languages (Native): Common Aerdi, Elvish, High Aerdi (2x4+LT)

Languages (Accented): Aegyptian, Anglish, Arabic, Argossean, Baklunish, Cold Tongue, Drow, Dwarvish,
East Oeridian, Flan, FR Common, Garethi, Gnomish, Goblin, Gorean, High Temung, Illyon, Low Talislan,
Novarian, Orcish, Tsolyanu, Vendhyan, West Oeridian, Wolsan (21x2+LT)

Language (Written Only, Native): Suloise (2+LT)

Languages (Written Only, Accented): Ancient Baklunish, Old Oeridian (2x1+LT)

Languages (Spoken Only, Accented): Hepmona (1+LT)

Cultural Familiarities: Cultural Adaptability (Xeno-Adaptability) (20)

Wealth: Filthy Rich (50) Status: 1 (0) Reaction: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Fast Talk, +2 Voice, +/- Status

Advantages: Absolute Direction (5), Absolute Timing (2), Ambidexterity (5), Combat Reflexes (15), Danger Sense (15), Empathy (15), Fit (5), High Pain Threshold (10), Language Talent (10), Luck (15), Recovery (10), Unfazeable (15), Voice (10)

Perks: Alcohol Tolerance (1), Deep Sleeper (1), No Hangover (1)

Disadvantages: Compulsive Carousing (12) (-5), Compulsive Spending (12) (-5), Curious (12) (-5), Laziness (-10), Lecherousness (12) (-15), Xenophilia (12) (-10)

Talent: Smooth Operator: (Diplomacy, Fast Talk, Intimidation, Savoir-Faire, Sex Appeal, Streetwise) +2 (10)

Skills: Acting IQ/A –16 (1), Administration IQ/A – 16 (1), Alchemy/TL3+4 IQ/VH – 15 (2x2), Archeology IQ/H – 15 (1), Area Knowledge (Magira) IQ/E – 18 (2), Bow DX/A – 18 (16), Brawling DX/E – 14 (1), Breath Control HT/H – 14 (4), Broadsword DX/A – 18 (16), Carousing HT/E – 18 (12), Climbing DX/A – 14 (2), Connoisseur (Wine) IQ/A – 17 (2), Crossbow DX/E – 16 (4), Detect Lies Per/H – 15 (1), Diplomacy IQ/H – 20 (2+Voice+Talent), Disguise/TL3 IQ/A – 16 (1), Engineer/TL4 (Clockwork) IQ/H – 15 (1), Erotic Art DX/A – 14 (2), Esoteric Medicine Per/H – 16 (2), Expert (Magic) IQ/H – 15 (1), Expert (Natural Philosophy) IQ/H – 17 (4), Fast Talk IQ/A – 20 (1+Voice+Talent), Fortune-Telling (Feng Shui) IQ/A – 18 (1+Charisma), Gambling IQ/A – 16 (1), Herb Lore /TL3 IQ/VH – 14 (1), Hiking HT/A – 14 (1), History (Magic) IQ/H – 16 (2), Innate Attack (Beam) DX/E – 16 (4), Interrogation IQ/A – 17 (2), Intimidation Will/A – 18 (1+Talent), Judo DX/H – 13 (2), Innate Attack (Projectile) DX/E – 17 (8), Karate DX/H – 13 (2), Knife DX/E – 14 (1), Knot Tying DX/E – 15 (2), Leadership IQ/A – 16 (1), Mathematics TL3 (Applied) IQ/H – 15 (1), Mental Strength Will/E – 18 (2), Merchant IQ/A – 20 (12), Meteorology/TL3 (Weathersense) IQ/A – 16 (1), Mind Block Will/A – 17 (2), Naturalist IQ/H – 16 (2), Navigation/TL3 (Sea) IQ/A – 19 (1+AbsDir), Observation Per/A – 17 (2), Occultism IQ/A – 17 (2), Pharmacy/TL3 (Herbal) IQ/H – 15 (1), Public Speaking IQ/A – 20 (4+Voice), Research/TL3 IQ/A – 16 (1), Riding (Horse) DX/A – 13 (1), Savoir Faire (High Society) IQ/E – 19 (1+Talent), Seamanship/TL3 IQ/E – 17 (1), Sex Appeal HT/A – 17 (1+Voice+Talent), Shield DX/E – 14 (1), Shiphandling/TL3 (Sea) IQ/H – 15 (1), Staff DX/A – 15 (4), Streetwise IQ/A – 18 (1+Talent), Swimming HT/E – 14 (1), Tactics IQ/H – 16 (2), Theology (Comparative) IQ/H – 15 (1), Theology (Oerth Pantheon) IQ/H – 15 (1), Throwing DX/A – 13 (1), Traps/TL3 IQ/A – 16 (1), Urban Survival Per/A – 16 (1)

Magic:
Magery 5 (55)
Inextinguishable Power (DF 11/36) (5)
Mana Enhancer 1 (50)
Wild Talent 1 (Retention, Magic Only, Costs 1 FP) (20)
Thaumatology IQ/VH – 20 (2)
Spells: (188):
Air (10): Purify Air – 20 (1), Create Air – 20 (1), Shape Air – 20 (1), Body of Air – 20 (1), Concussion – 20 (1),
No-Smell – 20 (1), Odor – 20 (1), Windstorm – 20 (1), Lightning – 20 (1), Ball of Lightning – 20 (1),
Summon Air Elemental – 20 (1), Control Air Elemental – 20 (1), Create Air Elemental – 20 (1)
Body Control (13): Itch – 20 (1), Spasm – 20 (1), Pain – 20 (1), Stun – 20 (1), Sensitize – 20 (1), Agonize – 20 (1),
Clumsiness – 20 (1), Paralyze Limb – 20 (1), Total Paralysis – 20 (1), Wither Limb – 20 (1), Deathtouch – 20 (1),
Hair Growth –20 (1), Haircut – 20 (1)
Communication & Empathy (14): Sense Foes – 20 (1), Sense Emotion – 20 (1), Truthsayer – 20 (1),
Compel Truth – 20 (1), Mind-Reading – 20 (1), Mind-Search VH – 19 (1), Mind-Sending – 20 (1),
Telepathy VH – 19 (1), Persuasion – 20 (1), Communication VH – 19 (1), Lend Language – 20 (1),
Borrow Language – 20 (1), Gift of Letters VH – 19 (1), Gift of Tongues VH – 19 (1)
Earth (8): Seek Earth – 20 (1), Shape Earth – 20 (1), Earth to Stone – 20 (1), Create Earth – 20 (1),
Walk through Earth – 20 (1),
Summon Earth Elemental – 20 (1), Control Earth Elemental – 20 (1), Create Earth Elemental – 20 (1)
Enchantment (4): Enchant VH – 19 (1), Powerstone – 20 (1), Manastone VH – 19 (1), Scroll – 20 (1)
Fire (13): Ignite Fire – 20 (1), Shape Fire – 20 (1), Create Fire – 20 (1), Extinguish Fire – 20 (1), Fireball – 20 (1),
Explosive Fireball – 20 (1), Heat – 20 (1), Flaming Weapons – 20 (1), Flaming Missiles – 20 (1), Flame Jet – 20 (1),
Summon Fire Elemental – 20 (1), Control Fire Elemental – 20 (1), Create Fire Elemental – 20 (1)
Food (9): Test Food – 20 (1), Seek Food – 20 (1), Cook – 20 (1), Create Food – 20 (1), Decay – 20 (1),
Purify Food – 20 (1), Mature – 20 (1), Water to Wine – 20 (1), Distill – 20 (1)
Gate (5): Seek Gate – 20 (1), Scry Gate – 20 (1), Control Gate – 20 (1), Teleport VH – 19 (1),
Teleport Other VH – 19 (1)
Healing (9): Lend Energy – 20 (1), Recover Energy – 20 (1), Lend Vitality – 20 (1), Minor Healing – 20 (1),
Major Healing VH – 19 (1), Relieve Sickness – 20 (1), Cure Disease – 20 (1), Detect Poison – 20 (1),
Neutralize Poison – 20 (1)
Illusion & Creation (3): Simple Illusion – 20 (1), Complex Illusion – 20 (1), Know Illusion – 20 (1)
Knowledge (13): Detect Magic – 20 (1), Seek Magic – 20 (1), Mage Sight – 20 (1), Mage Sense – 20 (1),
Aura – 20 (1), See Secrets – 20 (1), Seeker – 20 (1), Pathfinder – 20 (1), Trace – 20 (1), History – 20 (1),
Ancient History – 20 (1), Wizard Eye – 20 (1), Invisible Wizard Eye – 20 (1)
Light & Darkness (10): Light – 20 (1), Continual Light – 20 (1), Darkness – 20 (1), Blur – 20 (1), Hide – 20 (1),
Colors – 20 (1), Flash – 20 (1), Night Vision – 20 (1), Dark Vision – 20 (1), Invisibility – 20 (1)
Making & Breaking (7): Find Weakness – 20 (1), Weaken – 20 (1), Restore – 20 (1), Rejoin – 20 (1),
Repair – 20 (1), Clean – 20 (1), Dye – 20 (1)
Meta (13): Counterspell – 20 (1), Dispel Magic – 20 (1), Delay – 20 (1), Link – 20 (1), Maintain Spell VH – 19 (1),
Hang Spell VH – 19 (1), Telecast VH – 19 (1), Bless – 20 (1), Magic Resistance – 20 (1), Scryguard – 20 (1),
Scrywall – 20 (1), Spell Shield – 20 (1), Pentagram – 20 (1)
Mind Control (17): Keen Vision – 20 (1), Foolishness – 20 (1), Daze – 20 (1), Mass Daze – 20 (1),
Forgetfulness – 20 (1), Sleep – 20 (1), Mass Sleep – 20 (1), Fear – 20 (1), Bravery – 20 (1), Loyalty – 20 (1),
Charm – 20 (1), Enslave VH – 19 (1), Mental Stun – 20 (1), Emotion Control – 20 (1), Ecstasy VH – 19 (1),
Suggestion – 20 (1), Mass Suggestion – 20 (1)
Movement (4): Apportation – 20 (1), Levitation – 20 (1), Poltergeist – 20 (1), Winged Knife – 20 (1)
Necromantic (3): Steal Energy – 20 (1), Steal Vitality – 20 (1), Summon Demon – 20 (1)
Protection & Warning (9): Weather Dome – 20 (1), Shield – 20 (1), Missile Shield – 20 (1),
Reverse Missiles – 20 (1), Sense Danger – 20 (1), Watchdog – 20 (1), Sense Observation – 20 (1),
Umbrella – 20 (1), Magelock – 20 (1)
Sound (10): Sound – 20 (1), Keen Hearing – 20 (1), Voices – 20 (1), Thunderclap – 20 (1), Great Voice – 20 (1),
Message – 20 (1), Far-Hearing –20 (1), Sound Vision – 20 (1), Wizard Ear – 20 (1), Invisible Wizard Ear – 20 (1)
Water (10): Seek Water – 20 (1), Seek Coastline – 20 (1), Purify Water – 20 (1), Create Water – 20 (1),
Destroy Water – 20 (1), Dehydrate – 20 (1), Breathe Water – 20 (1),
Summon Water Elemental – 20 (1), Control Water Elemental – 20 (1), Create Water Elemental – 20 (1)
Weather (3): Predict Weather – 20 (1), Current – 20 (1), Wind – 20 (1)