Parrying weapons with Karate/Judo

[Adversary]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

1st Thought: Parrying the Arm

This assumes you are parrying the weapon. If you are using Boxing, Brawling, or (Sumo/Normal) Wrestling, why wouldn't you choose to Parry the arm instead?

I'd interpret it as any successful unarmed parry of a weapon is in actuality parrying the arm. That's what I've seen in martial arts training. But getting inside a weapon swing to parry the arm requires good timing, anticipation, etc. In gurps, karate and judo train for this; boxing, wrestling, etc. do not. Hence the penalty--everyone regardless of what skill they are using is trying to parry the arm, but the judo and karate people are better at it. You can't get around this by simply declaring "I am a going to parry the arm instead of the weapon." That is already what you are doing.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Adversary

I'd interpret it as any successful unarmed parry of a weapon is in actuality parrying the arm. That's what I've seen in martial arts training. But getting inside a weapon swing to parry the arm requires good timing, anticipation, etc. In gurps, karate and judo train for this; boxing, wrestling, etc. do not. Hence the penalty--everyone regardless of what skill they are using is trying to parry the arm, but the judo and karate people are better at it. You can't get around this by simply declaring "I am a going to parry the arm instead of the weapon." That is already what you are doing.

Actually, GURPS has very specific rules for this. If someone with a Reach 1 weapon is in an adjacent hex and attacks you, can you use a Retreat(Slip) Parry to move into close combat and Parry the attacking limb. It's most certainly an arm/limb parry, and not a weapon parry.

I agree that it makes sense that an Unarmed Parry vs. a weapon attack is, IRL, likely going to be a deflection and/or redirection of the attacking limb. However, that's not assumed in a GURPS Unarmed Parry. You can choose to describe it that way, but it's not what is actually happening, per the rules.

Here is an example for you:

Joe Gloves the Boxer has Boxing-14, and his Boxing Parry is 10.

If someone swings a Reach 1 Broadsword at Joe, his Parry is at -3, so he has to roll a 7 or less. Failure on the Parry means the attacker can choose to hit his original target or Joe's Parrying Hand/Arm.

If, on the other hand, Joe decides to combine his Parry with a Retreat(Slip) to Parry the Arm, his Parry is 11 and a failed Parry does not offer the attacker the opportunity to strike Joe's Hand/Arm (unless that was his original target).

[Adversary]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Actually, GURPS has very specific rules for this. If someone with a Reach 1 weapon is in an adjacent hex and attacks you, can you use a Retreat(Slip) Parry to move into close combat and Parry the attacking limb. It's most certainly an arm/limb parry, and not a weapon parry.

I agree that it makes sense that an Unarmed Parry vs. a weapon attack is, IRL, likely going to be a deflection and/or redirection of the attacking limb. However, that's not assumed in a GURPS Unarmed Parry. You can choose to describe it that way, but it's not what is actually happening, per the rules.

Here is an example for you:

Joe Gloves the Boxer has Boxing-14, and his Boxing Parry is 10.

If someone swings a Reach 1 Broadsword at Joe, his Parry is at -3, so he has to roll a 7 or less. Failure on the Parry means the attacker can choose to hit his original target or Joe's Parrying Hand/Arm.

If, on the other hand, Joe decides to combine his Parry with a Retreat(Slip) to Parry the Arm, his Parry is 11 and a failed Parry does not offer the attacker the opportunity to strike Joe's Hand/Arm (unless that was his original target).

Ah, I did not know that. Should have made sure I knew what I was talking about before speaking up.

That doesn't map to reality very well for me--if you parry a sword attack with your bare hands and you aren't in fact parrying the arm, what are you doing? Parrying the flat of the blade is considerably more than -3 in my opinion, is probably only possible in cinematic campaigns.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Actually, GURPS has very specific rules for this. If someone with a Reach 1 weapon is in an adjacent hex and attacks you, can you use a Retreat(Slip) Parry to move into close combat and Parry the attacking limb. It's most certainly an arm/limb parry, and not a weapon parry.

Could I get a page reference for that rule, please? Nothing in the description of Slip on MA124 talks about parrying the arm/limb instead of the weapon, and I can't find any other references in MA to this.

The only thing that I can find that kind of relates to arm vs weapon parries in a Harsh Realism for Unarmed Fighters suggestion (also on MA124), in which there isn't a penalty for Judo/Karate parries in Close Combat against crushing weapons. But that's a highly optional rule.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Could I get a page reference for that rule, please? Nothing in the description of Slip on MA124 talks about parrying the arm/limb instead of the weapon, and I can't find any other references in MA to this.

Yeah that rule is more about giving the defender a chance to force Close Combat rather than allow arm parries.

[Kalzazz]

Force Swords damage the body part or weapon used to parry them except on a critical success, so I always have interpreted parrying weapons as parrying the weapon itself, not the arm. Normal swords not being lightsabres/force swords, when you parry them you do not take appreciable damage from a normal success

However, I find the idea that when an unarmed attack gets parried that its the limb rather than the extremity that takes the hit is very unworking feeling to me. I want people to wear gauntlets not sleeves etc. And I think a horses hooves should protect it somewhat against its hoof strikes being parried.

Parrying with the arm makes sense, but, you usually try to hit someone with the fist rather than the forearm, so this seems a more proper place to get hit.

Also, if you parry someones punch by running their forearm into your sword, it seems equally valid to parry someones knife blow in the same fashion, and only slightly less valid to parry their sword blow thusly

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

However, I find the idea that when an unarmed attack gets parried that its the limb rather than the extremity that takes the hit is very unworking feeling to me. I want people to wear gauntlets not sleeves etc. And I think a horses hooves should protect it somewhat against its hoof strikes being parried.

Parrying with the arm makes sense, but, you usually try to hit someone with the fist rather than the forearm, so this seems a more proper place to get hit.

Je pense que je vais donner une mention honorable au poste de Gollum . . .

Originally Posted by Gollum

Having said that, Basic Set, page 377, is more precise:

"A failed parry means you are hit. If you are using hit locations, a failed parry against a weapon means your attacker may choose to hit his original target or the arm you parried with!"

I think that the author of this rule learned martial arts and know that karate parries (age-uke, shudan-uke, gedan-uke, ko-uke, skui-uke, harai-uke, hura-uke, tomoe-uke, and so on) are done with the arm or the wrist and not the hand. The hand is usually used immediately after the parry to grapple the foe's weapon arm.

. . . and point out that this seems to work both ways:
E.g. a cleanly executed age uke seems to cause a fore-arm-on-forearm contact; a badly executed one results in a hand-on-forearm contact, i.e. getting hit in your forearm with the enemy fist instead of parrying it.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by Adversary

I'd interpret it as any successful unarmed parry of a weapon is in actuality parrying the arm. That's what I've seen in martial arts training. But getting inside a weapon swing to parry the arm requires good timing, anticipation, etc. In gurps, karate and judo train for this; boxing, wrestling, etc. do not. Hence the penalty--everyone regardless of what skill they are using is trying to parry the arm, but the judo and karate people are better at it. You can't get around this by simply declaring "I am a going to parry the arm instead of the weapon." That is already what you are doing.

So how do I parry a swung polearm at reach 2+?