Alt.history - What trade could Europe and China have in the middle ages?

[jason taylor]

Any of the same stuff they had in real life. The only difference would be lack of several middlemen.

Walrus tusks, furs, and such and such.

Slaves

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

...

Slaves

Slaves are just people, and there would be loads more much closer to China.

[martin_rook]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Slaves are just people, and there would be loads more much closer to China.

Sure, but depending on the culture, it might not be okay to enslave the people nearby, who are pretty similar (culturally, racially, or whatever) to yours. But slaves from some far-off (and no doubt, barbaric) land might be acceptable.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by martin_rook

Sure, but depending on the culture, it might not be okay to enslave the people nearby, who are pretty similar (culturally, racially, or whatever) to yours. But slaves from some far-off (and no doubt, barbaric) land might be acceptable.

Assuming some resemblance to Real Life Ancient China, the Chinese sell their own children into slavery. And consider them far superior to any foreign barbarian.

Luxury slaves (this is a euphemism) might be valued for exotic looks, but otherwise, no interest.


Hans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Assuming some resemblance to Real Life Ancient China, the Chinese sell their own children into slavery. And consider them far superior to any foreign barbarian.

Luxury slaves (this is a euphemism) might be valued for exotic looks, but otherwise, no interest.


Hans

I remember on Emperor of the Sea a scene where one Korean merchant chieftainess is personally acting as a creepily Affably Evil sort of schoolmarm to children being groomed to be concubines for Chinese nobles. To be fair that is not quite the same as selling children to a street brothel if one wishes to make distinctions and it might even be a more comfortable life then a peasant girl would have.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I remember on Emperor of the Sea a scene where one Korean merchant chieftainess is personally acting as a creepily Affably Evil sort of schoolmarm to children being groomed to be concubines for Chinese nobles. To be far that is not quite the same as selling children to a street brothel if one wishes to make distinctions and it might even be a more comfortable life then a peasant girl would have.

Indeed, ending up the bed-slave of a high-status man is a form of social mobility.

Although from a certain perspective, it's important whether the move is for life, or only for half a decade or so until the woman's owner thinks she's gotten too old - what happens to her then?

Some bed-slave owners might set their slaves free with a parting gift, a reward for "good behaviour" and so that she can have a decent life and support the owner's bastard children, but many can't afford that, or can but aren't sufficiently satisfied with the slave's apparent level of fidelity (or use that as an excuse anyway even though she has been "good"). All that is common behaviour (manumission, and giving the reward, or withholding it with cause or without) for upper class gentlemen in my Ärth historical fantasy setting.

Ending up the concubine of a King or Emperor, though, is likely a move for life. He'll have the resources to not need to manumit those he's no longer interested in, and won't have to demote then to kitchen work because he can afford to maintain his idle ex-concubines.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Indeed, ending up the bed-slave of a high-status man is a form of social mobility.

Although from a certain perspective, it's important whether the move is for life, or only for half a decade or so until the woman's owner thinks she's gotten too old - what happens to her then?

Some bed-slave owners might set their slaves free with a parting gift, a reward for "good behaviour" and so that she can have a decent life and support the owner's bastard children, but many can't afford that, or can but aren't sufficiently satisfied with the slave's apparent level of fidelity (or use that as an excuse anyway even though she has been "good"). All that is common behaviour (manumission, and giving the reward, or withholding it with cause or without) for upper class gentlemen in my Ärth historical fantasy setting.

Ending up the concubine of a King or Emperor, though, is likely a move for life. He'll have the resources to not need to manumit those he's no longer interested in, and won't have to demote then to kitchen work because he can afford to maintain his idle ex-concubines.

Several concubines in China were clan-founders. I don't think "bastard" would quite be the word for her children's status though; a closer analogy would be the child of a Scottish handfast.

Older concubines in a harem could actually be useful. They can act as advisors, or beauticians, and have domestic role similar to eunechs.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I remember on Emperor of the Sea a scene where one Korean merchant chieftainess is personally acting as a creepily Affably Evil sort of schoolmarm to children being groomed to be concubines for Chinese nobles. To be far that is not quite the same as selling children to a street brothel if one wishes to make distinctions and it might even be a more comfortable life then a peasant girl would have.

The alternative to selling children into slavery was often that the children starve.


Hans

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

The alternative to selling children into slavery was often that the children starve.


Hans

Rescuing from the fire back into the frying pan isn't much of a choice.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by martin_rook

Sure, but depending on the culture, it might not be okay to enslave the people nearby, who are pretty similar (culturally, racially, or whatever) to yours. But slaves from some far-off (and no doubt, barbaric) land might be acceptable.

That would not be historically correct for race/skin colour. Nobody did racial slavery until the age-of-sail or thereabouts. Certainly not in the medieval period. Slavery-by-culture might be possible, but it still sounds odd t me.