Dungeon Fantasy and Sword&Sorcery

[Anders]

What is the difference between these two? And can I use the money spent on DF if I want a S&S campaign?

[johndallman]

IMHO, DF is a subset of S&S, which is a (rather large) subset of "Fantasy" as a genre within RPGs.

As best I can tell, S&S is about heroes in a pre-gunpowder setting, who get to do heroic fighting, plus possibly stealing, travelling, and politics. Swords are likely weapons, and there are magicians around who are capable enough to influence the politics of the world, although they might not be so common that every group of heroes has one. The setting is unlikely to be grimdark, although it might be darkly humorous.

A lot of the DF material will be useful for S&S, but some social skills, and a more detailed world/background will help.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anders

What is the difference between these two? And can I use the money spent on DF if I want a S&S campaign?

It seems to me that in classic S&S, the sorcerers were characteristically the villains. Having a mage as a party member was the big innovation that created dungeon fantasy. I suspect that Tolkien was one of the big creators of the trope.

Bill Stoddard

[Dalillama]

One's am RPG genre that took off in the 70s, the other's a literary genre that peaked in the 40s. Also, they're not very similar, except insofar as both are fantasy genres. S&S, as typified by the likes of Conan or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, has protagonists who are pretty much exclusively human (nonhuman sapients of any sort are rare and usually thoroughly evil) and very rarely spellcasters of any sort (Exceptions like Elric do exist, though); wizards, sorcerors and the like are principally adversaries or enigmas. Loot is usually in the form of cash or valuables, rather than magical weapons or other enchanted items; the latter are typically MacGuffins rather than anything the heroes can or want to use. Treasure is only occasionally found in dungeons per se, but more often in temples still used by evil cults, the palaces of kings and lords whom the protagonists have slain or overthrown, etc.

That said, a lot of DF stuff will still apply, as long as you tone down the magic using templates (I'd rule out anyone who's a primary caster as a PC template, for instance) and the fantasy races. All the stuff about over-the-top cinematic fantasy action fits right in, though.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by johndallman

IMHO, DF is a subset of S&S, which is a (rather large) subset of "Fantasy" as a genre within RPGs.

You know, I've been thinking a lot about this, and I think I'm onto something. I think it applies to both Sword and Sorcery and Swashbuckling, which are related genres.

Thinking of them as DF misses what they're really about. DF is ultimately a tactical challenge of killing monsters and taking their stuff. DF is very built around the dungeon as rooms. A room is a self-contained encounter and designed to allow each tactical puzzle (or literal puzzle) to be solved in isolation. This is the core of its gameplay.

S&S and Swashbuckling have more in common with Action. Action is more about approaching the entire challenge as a cohesive thing. In Action, you don't go from room to room of a villain's headquarters, encountering distinct tactical challenges. No, you recon the site. You investigate the villain. You blow up one side of the building and open fire on it so they never realize that your cat-thief is breaking in on the other side, while the hacker sends ghosts through the system to further confuse the situation. The scenario itself is often tied to a much larger world, one piece of a greater puzzle.

This sort of approach seems very common in sword and sorcery as well. A thief who slips past all of those tactical challenges isn't breaking the flow of the encounters or "twinking," he's doing what's intended. A good S&S game involves detailed stories of the villain, sweeping, flowing battles that can (and should!) be avoided with clever solutions, and everything is often tied into a larger narrative.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and that's not really what S&S is about. Maybe it's just D&D without a shirt on, I don't know. Genre definitions are fuzzy. But I do think there's certainly room in GURPS for this sort of thing and it's highly distinct from Dungeon Fantasy. An S&S design could certainly cheat off of DF's notes, but in the end, it needs to borrow liberally from (a TL2-4 take on) Action and go off in its own direction as well.

I've been trying to see what I can put together, but it's turned out to be altogether more complicated than I expected, and I have some other, more pressing projects.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The scenario itself is often tied to a much larger world, one piece of a greater puzzle.

This sort of approach seems very common in sword and sorcery as well. A thief who slips past all of those tactical challenges isn't breaking the flow of the encounters or "twinking," he's doing what's intended. A good S&S game involves detailed stories of the villain, sweeping, flowing battles that can (and should!) be avoided with clever solutions, and everything is often tied into a larger narrative.

You're definitely describing something that's real in gaming. I don't think of it as specifically Sword & Sorcery, so much as "The kind of thing I ended up playing after more than thirty years of the same D&D metacampaign". That has more of a rationale than a dungeon, and individual scenarios tend to be missions, rather than quests, or raids: if you can accomplish the mission without violence, that's just fine.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anders

And can I use the money spent on DF if I want a S&S campaign?

I'd imagine a lot of the templates will work almost as-is in the more serious S&S genre, although you'll probably want more investment in "background" skills than is expected. You might be better off starting your characters out using the 125-point Henchman templates and giving them an extra 25 or so points for fleshing out an actual character instead of a mere murder-hobo (if you want a more epic feel, go ahead and use the full 250 point delver templates and give them 50 "fleshing out" points). Magic users may be unavailable, or may only be available as a lens on one of the more mundane classes. Mundane gear from the books is probably fine, but magical gear is probably a no-go.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Anders

What is the difference between these two? And can I use the money spent on DF if I want a S&S campaign?

I don't think you're asking what the difference between dungeon crawl and sword-and-sorcery sub-genres of the fantasy genre. If so, my answer is not very much.

If you're asking if Dungeon Fantasy supplements work well with a sword-and sorcery game ran with GURPS, the answer is yes! DF 8 is great for treasure and DF Monsters is a good source for inspiration. DF 2 distills and collects a lot of rules for running a good fantasy game. DF 3 has a lot of templates for races, though there will be a tiny amount of conversion to a more generic flavor of GURPS.

DF just standardizes the game a little with its templates. It also abbreviates almost anything not happening in a dungeon to some degree—probably the largest rules departures center on that fact, and they aren't very extreme at all.

If you're on the edge, I'd suggest picking up DF 1 and DF 2 and giving them a read. I bet you'll be glad you did!

I didn't like the idea of DF at all until I took the plunge one day. Now, it's all I play.

[Kromm]

Classic S&S has two things that define it as a distinctive subset of fantasy:

1. Swords. This doesn't mean the weapons called "swords," but rather swords as a symbol of personal combat, which in turn represents personal action in general. Tales may well have the window dressing of empires and kings and politics, but the focus of the events – what the protagonists actually go out and do – is burglary, carousing, fighting, stalking, surviving, etc. in person. In many of the classics, the heroes will achieve something impressive in the name of some cause, only to see that forgotten in the very next story, because they apparently spent/lost all the money and burned all their bridges. So it's back to climbing up more towers, slaying more foes, stealing more jewels, drinking more ale . . . Epic events function as scenery, in the spirit of, say, Odysseus (sure, there were great wars going on and he was a man of social import, but the stories are about him fighting and tricking individual foes, and personally surviving scary situations).

2. Sorcery. This doesn't mean Fireball spells and magic swords in the hands of the heroes. Rather, it means evil human sorcerers, sinister and supernatural nonhumans, and horrific monsters with magical powers. It nearly always symbolizes the opposition, not resources wielded by the protagonists. If the heroes even have magic, it's minor, unreliable, and/or a source of more trouble than good. Consider the Gray Mouser, who was formerly the apprentice of a wizard, but whose magical powers are rarely helpful, and who currently has Sheelba of the Eyeless Face as a patron, which mostly means weirdness and annoying errands.

As far as DF goes, it's ideal for the Swords part. It already casts out politics and kings and empires to focus on heroic individual actions, and is already essentially episodic, with the heroes constantly questing after new treasures because apparently, the last bunch wasn't enough. It's a little forced for the Sorcery part, as it tends to make magic-working worthwhile as a primary profession and put magic items, nonhumans, and so on into the realm of the heroes rather than unpleasant NPCs.

To use DF for S&S, narrow the starting professions down to assassin, barbarian, innkeeper, knight, martial artist, scout, swashbuckler, thief, and maybe holy warrior and ninja. If someone wants to be a "wizard," point the player at the scholar or ask them to sacrifice 50 points from their primary template to buy the <whatever>-wizard lens. All PCs have to be human. Nonhumans and dedicated spellcasters are NPCs, usually unfriendly, and often evil . . . but you can still get your money's worth from the supplements for them, because you'll need enemies. All of the monsters and most of the rules for game play (hiking, sneaking, traps, etc.) work "as is." Finally, nobody can start with magic items, and there will be little to no magical treasure.

[Anders]

Ok, thanks. Healing will be an issue, though. Hmm...

ETA: As for Swords, there's a poem by Swedish 19th-century poet Erik Gustaf Geijer the attitude admirably - Vikingen (the Viking). It has very little to do with actual Vikings, but it does describe how he manages to get crowned of not-important-land. After one winter he smashes his crown and leaves, never to return. Why? Because it was so boring! They asked him to collect taxes and stuff. Mediate disputes between sheep-farmers. Or do you herd sheep? Too boring to remember...