Using the Pathfinder Kingdom Building rules with GURPS

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Sadly, GURPS doesn't really have any rules for running a nation

I think I've asked this before, but what about City Stats and the city management rules in Pyramid #54?

[Qhaysh]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I think I've asked this before, but what about City Stats and the city management rules in Pyramid #54?

I've tried going this route a couple of times, but couldn't make it scale very well (my fault, evidently), and it quickly became too complicated. I'd pay a lot for something official, as I'm sure many would. *nudge nudge wink wink*

[McAllister]

I'm one of those people Qhaysh is talking about. Sure, we've got city management rules, and farm-management rules, and mass-combat rules, and do any of them actually mesh with each other on a campaign scale? Grand Unified Kingdom Generation and Running would be money out of my pocket.

In the mean time, Jurgen's goal might not to be to convert these free rules (thanks Paizo!) to GURPS, but I just might... Anyway, my first comment is that almost all of these roles are administrators, so I'd say that Administration can be a complementary skill on any roll that isn't against Administration. So, add Admin to the skill list for most of the roles it's not on, and to flesh it out...

Ruler: Administration, Current Affairs (Several), Leadership, Politics, Public Speaking
Consort: Administration, Diplomacy, Housekeeping, Public Speaking, Savoir-Faire (High Society)
Councilor: Administration, Current Affairs (Own Nation), Politics, Propaganda, Sociology
General: Administration, Tactics, Savoir-Faire (Military), Soldier, Strategy
Grand Diplomat: Current Affairs (other nations), Diplomacy, Intelligence Analysis, Politics, Savoir-Faire (Several)
Heir: Administration, Diplomacy, Leadership, Public Speaking, Savoir-Faire (High Society)
High Priest: Administration, Propaganda, Public Speaking, Religious Ritual, Theology
Magister: Administration, Research, Teaching, Writing... Speed Reading or Savoir-Faire (Academia)? Something focused in a field?
Marshal: Administration, Area Knowledge, Intelligence Analysis, Law, Survival
Royal Enforcer: Criminology, Law, Intimidation, Interrogation, Streetwise
Spymaster: Administration, Acting, Cryptography, Intelligence Analysis, Streetwise
Treasurer: Accounting, Administration, Economics, Finance*, Market Analysis
Viceroy: As Leader
Warden: Administration, Criminology, Law, Savoir-Faire (Commoners), Streetwise

*Finance is probably better than Economics for the original. "It is a practical application of Economics (p. 189), much as Engineer skill is a practical application of Physics."

[Terranaunt]

Originally Posted by McAllister

In the mean time, Jurgen's goal might not to be to convert these free rules (thanks Paizo!) to GURPS, but I just might... Anyway, my first comment is that almost all of these roles are administrators, so I'd say that Administration can be a complementary skill on any roll that isn't against Administration. So, add Admin to the skill list for most of the roles it's not on, and to flesh it out...

Dunno why there is administration everywhere. Some changes, which, in my humble opinion, better represent roles:

General: Intelligence Analysis, Tactics, Savoir-Faire (Military), Soldier, Strategy
Spymaster: Current Affairs (something), Acting, Cryptography, Intelligence Analysis, Streetwise

And some questions:

Marshal: I don't understand what this roles intended to stand for.
Treasurer: Same. Looking at suggested skills, it is an attempt to merge into one an actual treasurer and an economics counsilor.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Terranaunt

Dunno why there is administration everywhere. Some changes, which, in my humble opinion, better represent roles:

General: Intelligence Analysis, Tactics, Savoir-Faire (Military), Soldier, Strategy
Spymaster: Current Affairs (something), Acting, Cryptography, Intelligence Analysis, Streetwise

And some questions:

Marshal: I don't understand what this roles intended to stand for.
Treasurer: Same. Looking at suggested skills, it is an attempt to merge into one an actual treasurer and an economics counsilor.

You can find info on the roles on Pathfinder's site, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemasterin...adership-Roles.

Originally Posted by Pathfinder

The Marshal ensures that the kingdom's laws are being enforced in the remote parts of the kingdom as well as in the vicinity of the capital. The Marshal is also responsible for securing the kingdom's borders. He organizes regular patrols and works with the General to respond to threats that militias and adventurers can't deal with alone.

So I would call that head of the kingdom's police and customs.

Originally Posted by Pathfinder

The Treasurer monitors the state of the kingdom's Treasury and citizens' confidence in the value of their money and investigates whether any businesses are taking unfair advantage of the system. The Treasurer is in charge of the tax collectors and tracks debts and credits with guilds and other governments.

And this head of the kingdoms organizations for treasury, taxes, and central banking systems.

[Terranaunt]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

So I would call that head of the kingdom's police and customs.

Okay, so that:
"Warden: Administration, Criminology, Law, Savoir-Faire (Commoners), Streetwise"
is good as it is from my point.

Originally Posted by Dragondog

And this head of the kingdoms organizations for treasury, taxes, and central banking systems.

And that guy:
"Treasurer: Accounting, Administration, Economics, Finance*, Market Analysis"
is in desperate need of Current Affairs (Business). Though there is no need for that to be included in talent.

[Rigil_Kent]

Sorry for necroing this thread, but it is very relevant to my current game and I like what you're doing here.

Question: in the original PF rules, Control DC for a check is "20 + the kingdom's Size in hexes + the total number of districts in all your settlements + any other modifiers from special circumstances or effects" - this makes larger kingdoms much harder to control. How would you reflect this using GURPS mechanics since we want lower numbers instead of high?

Friend of mine also had a neat idea regarding the kingdom stats: treat them similarly to a Stability Roll as in vehicles. So if you are just starting out and have a Stability of 6, then a control roll that fails by less than that is just a minor fail (increase Unrest by 1?) but a fail of greater than this triggers some sort of Unrest event?

[nondescript handle]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I think I've asked this before, but what about City Stats and the city management rules in Pyramid #54?

City Stats is very good at what it does (describing cities/settlements carefully designed by the GM), and I think it can be expanded to a more general system. But it is quite hard and frustrating to do so ad hoc for an GM. This is really more a task for a game designer and a playtest group.

Scaling City Stats down (i.e. for city quarters) is the easiest, but it relies heavily on GM fiat (e.g. what is the combined Corruption Rating? The average of all quarters? The one of the government quarter?).

Scaling City Stats up for nations is much harder. E.g. in City Stats you just pick a number for the population and there are some vague hints about the area this city then covers (CS p. 12). In nation building you often have the area first and have to come up with an appropriate population number. I bolted on the Carring Capacity rules from Space p. 91, but those are very granular and incorporating Environmental Quality ratings would make a big difference especially at low TLs.
I would also like some kind of system for natural resources (e.g. silver mines, etherwood forests, etc) and other physical/social features (natural harbors, way point at the silk road, etc).
And the RAW system of 'taxes depend on CR, CR depends heavily on Society Type' is a bit constricting for players and too granular for domain play.

Also: player often want to build their domains, since they are basically an extension of the PCs. A build system would be of great help: 'You have 100 City Build Points/12M$/whatever to build your barony, normal mana only, max TL3!'

On the other hand GMs often need to come up with several NPC-domains, so a random city/domain creation table would be GM-stress reducing.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by nondescript handle

Also: player often want to build their domains, since they are basically an extension of the PCs. A build system would be of great help: 'You have 100 City Build Points/12M$/whatever to build your barony, normal mana only, max TL3!'

This is why I'm pulling for that Grand Unified Kingdom Generation and Running ruleset. I can pretend to be a game designer and a playtest group, but I'd love for the professionals to do it.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Well, the other reason why I am using the Pathfinder Kingdom Building rules is that while I am running most of this campaign with GURPS, I want to eventually release it as a Pathfinder product.

But yeah, a nation-building system for GURPS would be of huge interest to me as well.