GURPS 4e Entry Point

[DeDiceManCometh]

This thread is to unload some tangency off of the GURPS/4E... could be more attractive? thread. It is to discuss the challenges, options, and goals of creating a product beyond the current GURPS Lite that lowers the bar for new players.

I'll kick off the discussion by asking, what form should this product take? Boxed set? Microgame, a la Melee? Mini-game with a couple of cheap plastic minis? And three dice? A card game that somehow includes the basic combat mechanic? A game like Zombies with all of the aforementioned, but with the dice mechanic of GURPS? (Dudes, I am brain dumping here. Most of this is absurd, but you know, keep trying...)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by DeDiceManCometh

This thread is to unload some tangency off of the GURPS/4E... could be more attractive? thread. It is to discuss the challenges, options, and goals of creating a product beyond the current GURPS Lite that lowers the bar for new players.

I'll kick off the discussion by asking, what form should this product take? Boxed set? Microgame, a la Melee? Mini-game with a couple of cheap plastic minis? And three dice? A card game that somehow includes the basic combat mechanic? A game like Zombies with all of the aforementioned, but with the dice mechanic of GURPS? (Dudes, I am brain dumping here. Most of this is absurd, but you know, keep trying...)

I once proposed a set of what I called "Self Contained Scenarios." Adventures or mini-campaigns that could be played with only either Lite or the Basic Set (this was before Basic 4e came out), and would be enhanced greatly by possessing ONE 128 page 3e book.

Thus, for less than $50 you could be up and playing in a particular genre very quickly.

I sitll think there's an e23 outlet there, and I do like the idea of Lite being able to handle a basic Scenario. Asking for $70 as a barrier to entry is a bit steep. But the good news is, once you do that, these pre-gen adventures are all VERY accessible even without extra $35 books.

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by DeDiceManCometh

It is to discuss the challenges, options, and goals of creating a product beyond the current GURPS Lite that lowers the bar for new players.

Why is such a product necessary? It is not difficult for an educated person to read the Basic Set, and GURPS Lite is free, which allows a potential new player to assess the core mechanics of the system in advance. In addition to that, there are countless reviews and articles online available for research prior to purchase.

I myself started learning GURPS, 4th Edition for the first time just a few months ago, and I never learned 3rd Edition. I now am familiar with most of the system, and can find anything else in the rulebooks fairly quickly.

I see no reason to create something simply as eye-candy to attract players who cannot be bothered to research a system, read a couple of rulebooks, or understand that style does not equate to substance. That's just my opinion, though.

[Polydamas]

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, DiceMan, but I have always been hoping for some GURPS adventures to be published. I would prefer them to use the full Basic Set, but even ones based on GURPS Lite might do. We now have two major settings out for 4e (Yrth and Infinite Worlds), both of which ought to be popular enough to have some hope of selling adventures. I know that adventures sell poorly, and profit margins are small. That is largely why modules are mostly a D&D thing, because so many people play D&D and almost all play in settings where most generic adventures could be inserted. But is this not a self-reinforcing phenomenon? There are lots of people (like me) who own GURPS and rarely play it. Partially this results from a lack of gaming groups, or gaming groups more interested in other things. But going from playing and GMing D&D to GURPS is hard! An experienced GURPS GM can easily invent adventures, or develop them from outlines in Pyramid and other places. But before a GM gets experienced, it really helps to have something to learn from and model on. While it remains hard to learn to run a good GURPS game the number of players will remain small, and so will the potential profits of selling adventure modules.

[DeDiceManCometh]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, DiceMan, but I have always been hoping for some GURPS adventures to be published.

Actually, adventures are not an entry point to a product line (they fall into the category of support for a product). However, that said, I have long wished for more GURPS adventures and long understood completely why the economic model for SJG was not optimal for them to invest in them. I have posted elsewhere that I hope the e23 distribution model changes this.

But that's tangential.

The real point is: Is GURPS Lite bringing in lots of *new* players? I don't see it happening at any of the FLGSs around here. GURPS 4e is supposed to be scaleable from easy to difficult, but for those who want to use it way over toward the easy end of the spectrum, there's precious little incentive to do so.

You can put out a huge tome, replete with options and complexities, say "Hey, you only really need to use a tiny bit of this, if you like," and guess what? You still have newbie players staring at a product on a shelf that looks like a huge tome, replete with options and complexities.

GURPS Lite does not step in and solve this IMHO, because it has no genre stuff in it (esp. Magic, ipso facto, no Fantasy, which is something like 75% or more of the market). It does just what another post in this thread says: It allows an experienced RPGer to browse the core mechanics and give a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Fine, if that's all you're looking for.

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by DeDiceManCometh

You can put out a huge tome, replete with options and complexities, say "Hey, you only really need to use a tiny bit of this, if you like," and guess what? You still have newbie players staring at a product on a shelf that looks like a huge tome, replete with options and complexities.

*sigh* I hope you don't think I'm an @$$hole, DiceMan . . . but if people are too lazy and/or simple-minded to dive right into GURPS, maybe it's not the system for them. Anyone who feels intimidated by a couple of rulebooks . . . how will they make it through college? How did they even make it through high school, for that matter? How can someone look at a game book and say to themselves, "Wow, I can't handle that. I need something that's simple, easy, and has lots of pretty pictures."? What does that say about a person?

I memorize (more-or-less) new systems all the time. Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu, Blue Planet, Alternity, d20, GURPS, Nobilis, The Burning Wheel . . . how hard can it be? Am I some sort of a genius among my kind? Not likely!

It's ludicrous, simply ludicrous. Every gamer who's been playing more than a couple of years will know what GURPS is. If they need big, bright, low-page-count pop-up books with fuzzy dice to get interested, I wouldn't want to play with them anyway.

[Hex]

And, lets be serious. I know that GURPS has a reputation to be a complex system. Heck everytime I read a thread over at RPGnet about GURPS it's always grouped in as one of the crunchier games. Undoubtably GURPS can be crunchy...it does attract that crowd, but more importantly GURPS has more of a flexability built into it. I admittably do not go over to the crunchy side. I use only a few of the optional rules. GURPS is easy to learn as compared to games like Burning Wheel or D&D. And, speaking of D&D if you hadn't noticed D&D requires the use of 3 core books with the rules spread over the three books. With GURPS the players really only need Characters and only the GM really needs the Campaign & Characters book.

I really don't think that the product is flawed...I really think it is, it's, image that needs redifining amongst the gamers out there. GURPS is often said in same breath with games like HERO. HERO is crunch and not very flexible...it is what it is. So, people are just grouping their games into categories and all too often GURPS gets thrown into the crunchy crowd.

Maybe what your looking for is something like This.

[capt tripps]

but if people are too lazy and/or simple-minded to dive right into GURPS, maybe it's not the system for them.

I'm going out on a limb here, but this doesn't sound like an approach that going to draw lots of new people who might might otherwise be intimidated by the system. All that approach is going to do is keep new people away until Gurps finds itself with an increasingly smaller group of hardcore fans and a dwindling market-share and profits.

I think the Melee/Wizard approach is a good one. I started playing it when I was ~12. It was quick, easy to learn, and a lot of fun. And left me wanting more. If somebody had thrown 5 lbs of books at me and said read this and get back with me, I probably would never have gotten into Melee/Wizard/TFT/D&D/GURPS/ . . .

Here are a couple of examples. They have a very basic book, an advanced basic book, some dice, an adventure, a map, and some figures. Surely not enough to stand by itself for too long, but enough to get them interesed and wanting more.

D&D Basic
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/7929

HeroScape
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/11170

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by capt tripps

I'm going out on a limb here, but this doesn't sound like an approach that going to draw lots of new people who might might otherwise be intimidated by the system.

in·tim·i·date (in-tim-i-dayt) v. (in·tim·i·dated, in·tim·i·dating) to subdue or influence by frightening with threats or force. in·tim·i·da·tion (in-tim-i-day-shon) n.

If someone is frightened or feels threatened by the fact that they might have to read 500 pages of literature and possibly use their brain for longer than five minutes, then they need to grow some cujones, and fast. It's not all that difficult to do; I routinely read 1000-page novels, and though I can read very fast, I deliberately read slowly to better absorb information. Literacy is a joy and a privilege, as is gaming; I have no sympathy for dolts who need special treatment.

Originally Posted by capt tripps

All that approach is going to do is keep new people away until Gurps finds itself with an increasingly smaller group of hardcore fans and a dwindling market-share and profits.

*shrug* If selling to simpletons becomes a necessity for SJG to survive, I'm all for it, but they'll cetainly lose my business if they start dumbing everything down and wasting time designing products to attract dullards.

Originally Posted by capt tripps

I think the Melee/Wizard approach is a good one. I started playing it when I was ~12. It was quick, easy to learn, and a lot of fun. And left me wanting more. If somebody had thrown 5 lbs of books at me and said read this and get back with me, I probably would never have gotten into Melee/Wizard/TFT/D&D/GURPS/ . . .

. . . At that age, I'd have eaten them up. In fact, I blazed through Mage: The Ascension when I was 13, and several sourcebooks besides. Where young players are concerned, it's best for them to learn from older, wiser players or stay out of the deep end if they can't handle it. ;)

Originally Posted by capt tripps

Here are a couple of examples. They have a very basic book, an advanced basic book, some dice, an adventure, a map, and some figures. Surely not enough to stand by itself for too long, but enough to get them interesed and wanting more.

D&D Basic
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/7929

HeroScape
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/11170

Yes, I'm familiar with those. I'm not against having simple games for younger or simpler players, but I AM against SJG allocating resources to attracting people who don't like dem big ol' boohks, or who may not even use the main system.

[GoodGame]

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
I kind of agree. I think to get the younger market into the game, it might be necessary to do like D&D, and chop the basic game up into more comic-book sized and styled intros, in addition to selling the big tomes (D&D has gone towards putting all 3 books into one tome now). Having just bought lots of 3e books on sale, I can see that that style of smaller, focused books is more inviting to Newbies, even if the content isn't as high. At a $13 to $15 price mark, role playing game books as modern Graphic Novella's might sell better---and that seems to be the D20 trend as well.

Am I right or wrong, but aren't most rpg's more oriented to the comic book stores than the model/Games Workshop stores? They should key into the marketplace setting as well as the hardcore fan.

Alternatively, I still think they could sell boxed sets that were in the range of board games and minis (perhaps only paper minis), while still being intro or thematic GURPS. E.g. Maybe an intro set, a Horror set, a Autoduel set etc...
SJG already does board/card games well, so it's almost a no-brainer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johansen
NO, it's not just the art it's accessability, GURPS is too big and scary. There needs to be some better entry points. I'm thinking Prime Directive, but with better art would be an excellent example of what I'm thinking. Cheap and setting complete, no sorting out what you want to allow.

Don't get me wrong, I love big reference books, but I'm a long time fan, not a new customer. GURPS lite is too small to do the job. What might do well is some 16 page world books for say, Fantasy, Horror, and Science Fiction. Put a floppy cover on them (with an overleaf of cardboard heros) and the lite book and price under $20.

Diskworld and WorldWar II were along the right lines but too specific and too expensive. Yes two $20 books are as expensive as one bigger book, but smaller books aren't as scary looking.

I'd suggest: GURPS Bane Storm lite, GURPS Autoduel lite, GURPS Ogre lite, and GURPS Traveller lite (which needs the William Keith art, or all new Dave Detrik no substitutions please).