[Basic] Skill of the week: Brainwashing (and Brain Hacking)

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Bit different when you're doing a procedure that can literally change the patient's mind I think.

There are real treatments that can literally change the patient's mind.

The most startling treatment of Brain Hacking I've seen is the one in the Moon of the Three Rings where that before going out on a restricted planet, their version of the Prime Directive mandates that every crew member be mentally reprogrammed to be incapable of selling or giving more advanced technology to the natives. The startling part is that the protagonist regards that as an inconvenience.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I e-mailed it on the 13th. I tend to do most of the research for these posts straight after submitting the previous one, so that I have time to think about it before finalising the text. If Empathy is meant to boost Brainwashing in the Madness Dossier setting, then the text to say so seems to be missing.

Yeah that is weirdly phrased. I think it means that the bonus applies to Pyschology to determine if it passes the 12+ threshold for the bonus to Brainwashing, but I'm not sure.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yeah that is weirdly phrased. I think it means that the bonus applies to Pyschology to determine if it passes the 12+ threshold for the bonus to Brainwashing, but I'm not sure.

I think that's what it's meant to say, but some confusion crept in somewhere.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yeah that is weirdly phrased. I think it means that the bonus applies to Pyschology to determine if it passes the 12+ threshold for the bonus to Brainwashing, but I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by johndallman

I think that's what it's meant to say, but some confusion crept in somewhere.

I had to re-read it to get what you were talking about, but now I see it. I think that's actually the intention, explaining why it would pass editorial muster. Assuming that, it's not introducing a new modifier to Brainwashing, but just reminding of the existing ones for Psychology.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

There are real treatments that can literally change the patient's mind.

So following the conversation... would it be good, evil or something else to force such "treatments" on those that don't consent, and if it is what happens when someone does it anyone but the end result is a "patient" that now no longer cares or realizes he was "treated"? What about when a government can mandate such treatment regardless of consent? Yes, some people ethically may warrant compulsion for treatment; they really are ill and need it. The problem is that having the power to do something is not the same as having the legitimate moral authority.

Also, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to treat brainwashing as... brainwashing. Not a matter of persuasion or peer pressure or the many common things that can one might claim are lesser forms of brainwashing.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

It's manipulation of the brain/mind. It's only "evil" if done without consent or medical necessity just like nearly every other form of coercion.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Now... how do you prove consent or medical necessity?

Originally Posted by Otaku

Bit different when you're doing a procedure that can literally change the patient's mind I think.

Come to think of it, my character did voluntarily undergo some extensive mind-editing. Totally voluntarily. And is planning to undergo more. He also knows the process, so he was pretty informed.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Come to think of it, my character did voluntarily undergo some extensive mind-editing. Totally voluntarily. And is planning to undergo more. He also knows the process, so he was pretty informed.

And you know this because you're not your character; you know that he wanted his mind altered and so he underwent the process, and that the end results were what he wanted.

In real life with fantastic elements (as opposed to the "mundane" real world brainwashing)... could you know? That message you left yourself to remind yourself that you did indeed volunteer for the process... did you really leave it or is it a forgery. The memory of leaving it could be faked (assuming there is one) and if you can jack with someone's brain by altering memories, you could force someone to write such a note, record such a video, etc. before then wiping/replacing that memory as well.

Other people? Could be in on it. The good news is that eventually it does become improbable to downright ridiculous if "the entire world" has to be in on it. Still, for the PCs in a campaign, this sounds like quite the trap (or adventure starter).

Player: "The mysterious stranger tells you that he is your brother."

GM: "He tells you that your memory has been wiped and replaced. They also did some cosmetic work to avoid you resembling your former appearance."

Player: "Yeah but I know what actually happened."

GM: "Do you?"

In all seriousness, there are times when the GM must provide incomplete or faulty information to the PCs. That is why sometimes the GM rolls for you; if you fail a Perception check then the player knows the character missed something (barring "fake" checks that exist just to keep players guessing). If you get caught, for example, in an Illusion (or hallucination or virtual world etc.) the GM should be giving you some clues, but in accordance with the plot. This could mean gaming out events that aren't happening at all.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Otaku

And you know this because you're not your character; you know that he wanted his mind altered and so he underwent the process, and that the end results were what he wanted.

In real life with fantastic elements (as opposed to the "mundane" real world brainwashing)... could you know? That message you left yourself to remind yourself that you did indeed volunteer for the process... did you really leave it or is it a forgery. The memory of leaving it could be faked (assuming there is one) and if you can jack with someone's brain by altering memories, you could force someone to write such a note, record such a video, etc. before then wiping/replacing that memory as well.

Other people? Could be in on it. The good news is that eventually it does become improbable to downright ridiculous if "the entire world" has to be in on it. Still, for the PCs in a campaign, this sounds like quite the trap (or adventure starter).

Player: "The mysterious stranger tells you that he is your brother."

GM: "He tells you that your memory has been wiped and replaced. They also did some cosmetic work to avoid you resembling your former appearance."

Player: "Yeah but I know what actually happened."

GM: "Do you?"

Note that I'm looking at it not from the post-edit PoV, but from a pre-edit one. I.e. it's not a question of 'do I trust that I agreed to being edited'; it's a question of 'here is the specialist who can do changes X and Y to me; do I go with it?'. And the answer is yes. (As a player I also know that it 'was' yes, but this is beside the point.)

[Flyndaran]

The most recent episode of Doctor Who touched on this concept.

Spoiler of the beginning only:

Spoiler:  

The characters are "suddenly" transported to a place with their memories of the past unit of time erased. They hear their own voices stating that it was done of their own free will.

(I'm sorry. I can't remember how to hide text.) I see someone was kind enough to fix it for me. Someone also PM-ed me on how to do it for next time.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Otaku

So following the conversation... would it be good, evil or something else to force such "treatments" on those that don't consent,

Well, our attitude toward such things is shaped to some extent by the fact that all such treatments will handicap the subject to some extent, whether it's a anti-psychotic drug regimen, or a prefrontal lobotomy. Our attitudes might change somewhat if we could really edit people to be fully functional instead of differently handicapped. Even so it would normally only be acceptable for people convicted of such serious crimes that execution or very long prison terms would be the modern recourse.

A minor rewrite of someone's memory is an assault. Like an assault, it becomes socially acceptable if the person is genuinely permitting it. One can not complain about being punched if one enters a boxing match. It also becomes acceptable if for example it somehow keeps your victim from killing you because they've forgotten why they wanted to. A nearly complete rewrite of someone's basic personality traits lies in the territory rape and murder in terms of intrusiveness even if the rewrite produces someone who is much happier and easier for everyone to else to live with. But if you'd allow someone to commit suicide, there not reason not to allow someone to walk into a personality improvement parlour.

However, if you are a spy, you are to some extent released from normal constraints of law and custom provided that what you are doing serves your government's interests. Thus you can steal, lie, commit assault and murder provided that it serves a legitimate national security end. And that's where you end up with the Alpha Centauri Probe Teams brainhacking base officials to facilitate bloodless takeovers.