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Old 07-25-2014, 11:22 AM   #31
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Maybe, but any such rule should apply at least as much to other weapons as lasers. The basic mechanic for firing a rifle at long distances is:
  1. Align sights on target.
  2. Calculate Range
  3. Adjust aim point for bullet drop and target motion.
  4. Pull Trigger.
Lasers skip steps 2 and 3. This should always be faster and more accurate than the rifle.
Actually, lasers do step 2, and replace step 3 with "Adjust optics to focus beam at target range".
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:36 AM   #32
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Actually, lasers do step 2, and replace step 3 with "Adjust optics to focus beam at target range".
Well, unless they're using constant focus optics, but true, most laser weapons will do that. However, the effects of getting range wrong are different -- with a gun it's "you might miss", with a laser it's "your armor divisor turns horrible".

Actually, it may be worth noting that lasers cannot benefit from active sensor targeting.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:09 PM   #33
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
Varyon, Anthony, and Iwcamp are talking about all these things (integral rangefinder, not worrying about wind or distorted light, no need to lead the target, image/mechanism stabilization) that make it easier to hit at long range, and I agree, but I donít really see how any of it will help you hit someone running around 10 yards from you in the eye.

And of course I may just be revealing my profound ignorance of marksmanship...but in that case I really want to know what Iím missing!
At close range, a laser has the benefit of not having paralax between the sights and where the barrel is pointing. Since the sights of a firearm are set above the barrel, you will usually have some vertical distance between where the gun is aimed and where the bullet hits - at close ranges, the bullet will hit below the point of aim. Typically, the angle of the sights is set a bit low, so that the bullet rises into and past the line of aim before being dragged back down across the aim line by gravity, giving a reasonable range in which you are not too far off. However, with a laser using a single lens reflex aiming system, you simply don't have to worry about this.

Also - image stabilization is good at any range. It makes it easier to aim and hold the weapon steady, which is as good for zapping close small things as distant things.

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Old 07-25-2014, 10:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
At close range, a laser has the benefit of not having paralax between the sights and where the barrel is pointing. Since the sights of a firearm are set above the barrel, you will usually have some vertical distance between where the gun is aimed and where the bullet hits - at close ranges, the bullet will hit below the point of aim. Typically, the angle of the sights is set a bit low, so that the bullet rises into and past the line of aim before being dragged back down across the aim line by gravity, giving a reasonable range in which you are not too far off. However, with a laser using a single lens reflex aiming system, you simply don't have to worry about this.
Mmmm...single-lens reflex electric death... </Homer voice>

Yeah that does seem quite useful (heck, even I can see that coming in handy in ARMA).

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Also - image stabilization is good at any range. It makes it easier to aim and hold the weapon steady, which is as good for zapping close small things as distant things.
I don't know much about image stabilization. How does it distinguish between intentional jerks to stay on, say, a moving target and unintentional hand shake?
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:22 PM   #35
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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I don't know much about image stabilization. How does it distinguish between intentional jerks to stay on, say, a moving target and unintentional hand shake?
If it has the frequency and amplitude typical of muscle tremmor, respiration, pulse, etc; it cancels it out. If it has frequency and amplitude typical of intentional movement, it allows it. It is not perfect, but it does help a lot with keeping modern photographic equipment stable enough for, for example, low light shots while not significantly interfering with action shots.

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Old 07-25-2014, 10:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
At close range, a laser has the benefit of not having paralax between the sights and where the barrel is pointing. Since the sights of a firearm are set above the barrel, you will usually have some vertical distance between where the gun is aimed and where the bullet hits - at close ranges, the bullet will hit below the point of aim. Typically, the angle of the sights is set a bit low, so that the bullet rises into and past the line of aim before being dragged back down across the aim line by gravity, giving a reasonable range in which you are not too far off. However, with a laser using a single lens reflex aiming system, you simply don't have to worry about this.

Also - image stabilization is good at any range. It makes it easier to aim and hold the weapon steady, which is as good for zapping close small things as distant things.

Luke
I suppose the real issue isn't that we don't think lasers are better than guns for this. For all of the cases brought up, I'd rather have the laser with the neat toys.

The issue is ANY weapon that is controlled by pointing it and pulling a trigger having a Gurps accuracy of 12 in the short range case. With skill 10 one second of aiming lets a shooter hit clay pigeons as though he were using a shot gun. and thats with out allowing rapid fire. There is a point were stabilizing your weapon and hand eye coordination is more important than the aiming apperatus and where one second no longer is sufficient. I'm just wondering where that point is.
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Actually, it may be worth noting that lasers cannot benefit from active sensor targeting.
The rules for targeting sensors in general seem a bit off to me. I made a thread asking a lot of questions about it here.

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If it has the frequency and amplitude typical of muscle tremmor, respiration, pulse, etc; it cancels it out. If it has frequency and amplitude typical of intentional movement, it allows it. It is not perfect, but it does help a lot with keeping modern photographic equipment stable enough for, for example, low light shots while not significantly interfering with action shots.

Luke
Okay yeah, I can definitely see that working as a net positive. Which I guess is good because it clearly is IRL. :)

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I suppose the real issue isn't that we don't think lasers are better than guns for this. For all of the cases brought up, I'd rather have the laser with the neat toys.

The issue is ANY weapon that is controlled by pointing it and pulling a trigger having a Gurps accuracy of 12 in the short range case. With skill 10 one second of aiming lets a shooter hit clay pigeons as though he were using a shot gun. and thats with out allowing rapid fire. There is a point were stabilizing your weapon and hand eye coordination is more important than the aiming apperatus and where one second no longer is sufficient. I'm just wondering where that point is.
Indeed, this is still a hangup for me as well.
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Last edited by MatthewVilter; 07-26-2014 at 12:51 AM. Reason: not double posting
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:08 AM   #38
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
The issue is ANY weapon that is controlled by pointing it and pulling a trigger having a Gurps accuracy of 12 in the short range case. With skill 10 one second of aiming lets a shooter hit clay pigeons as though he were using a shot gun. and thats with out allowing rapid fire. There is a point were stabilizing your weapon and hand eye coordination is more important than the aiming apperatus and where one second no longer is sufficient. I'm just wondering where that point is.
The fix for this is probably to allow Acc bonus to be used only to cancel out Speed/Range penalties but not Size penalties (and hit location is just another variant Size penalty). Or perhaps to only allow it to cancel out those penalties after 2 or 3 seconds of aiming.

Or, to put it another way, maximum Effective Skill Level (after all bonuses and penalties) should cannot exceed Base Skill Level + RoF Bonus +/- Size Modifier.
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Old 07-26-2014, 08:31 AM   #39
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
The fix for this is probably to allow Acc bonus to be used only to cancel out Speed/Range penalties but not Size penalties (and hit location is just another variant Size penalty). Or perhaps to only allow it to cancel out those penalties after 2 or 3 seconds of aiming.

Or, to put it another way, maximum Effective Skill Level (after all bonuses and penalties) should cannot exceed Base Skill Level + RoF Bonus +/- Size Modifier.
I would argue that canceling range penalties is the same as canceling size penalties - both are just allowing you to control the weapon pointing better to maintain a smaller angular deviation, thus allowing shooting smaller things and farther things. I can see, however, not allowing it to cancel speed penalties. Taking time to get careful aim may mean that a fast moving thing isn't there anymore.

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Old 07-26-2014, 09:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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I would argue that canceling range penalties is the same as canceling size penalties - both are just allowing you to control the weapon pointing better to maintain a smaller angular deviation, thus allowing shooting smaller things and farther things.
Okay...see...

You have convinced me that laser weapons should have significant advantages at short range but not that all of the problems with hitting small things are the same as all of the problems with hitting far away things...

Small angular deviation is necessary in both cases but considering how many potentially ruinous factors come up when shooting at long range I feel that there has to be more going on with range and size penalties.

Laser weapons are very much an edge case for GURPS' ranged combat rules...
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