[RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)

[ronalmb]

Originally Posted by Langy

An RPM caster I'm making for an MH game has base skill of 18, +2 for his charm kit, and can easily afford a +6 grimoire, giving a total effective skill of 26.

Effective skill of 15 isn't a professional RPM caster at all, much less a high-end one.

I'm going to have to disagree with that assessment. I am pretty positive I've read in several places that a skill of 13 is considered a professional level. I'm also pretty positive that i've read somewhere that skills of around 25 are pretty grandmasterish.

Did I imagine reading this under skills somewhere?

Edit: 13 is off by 1 depending on interpretation of what "expert" means vs. "professional", but B172 has a panel that discusses what skill levels can be comparable to. Notably a 14 is an expert. Masterful levels is 20 to 25. I don't believe im far off when i consider a high end professional being around 15 -- i suppose he should be closer to 18... but 26 effective skill level is pretty high for me, especially right out of the gate for character creation. I'm gonna have to just write that off as differences in our power levels for starting games.

Even a Path Skill-18 character is going to have a hard time not harming himself on the Body of Shadow spell. Your character with his effective skill of 26 is going to be around a safe threshold of 125, so granted he's less likely to blow himself up.. (Still can tho!). I'm really positive I don't want all my mages running around with Effective Skill 26 just to be able to do that kind of magic for 10 minutes.

A +6 Grimoire is 3,500 -- out of the price range of starting equipment for a TL3 Average Wealth. Comfortable can't afford it, and a Wealthy character could afford it if he spends over half his starting resources -- I don't believe the +6 grimoire will be standard fair for many starting characters. Granted, my starting characters won't be running around trying to cast Body of Shadow so the observation is moot.



I've played with tripling the safe threshold values -- it seems to reduce the risks and allow a little more access to larger spells but it's quite possible I'll end up regretting it, given my lack of experience. I'll see how it works out tomorrow during game.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by ronalmb

I'm going to have to disagree with that assessment. I am pretty positive I've read in several places that a skill of 13 is considered a professional level. I'm also pretty positive that i've read somewhere that skills of around 25 are pretty grandmasterish.

Did I imagine reading this under skills somewhere?

Edit: 13 is off by 1 depending on interpretation of what "expert" means vs. "professional", but B172 has a panel that discusses what skill levels can be comparable to. Notably a 14 is an expert. Masterful levels is 20 to 25. I don't believe im far off when i consider a high end professional being around 15 -- i suppose he should be closer to 18... but 26 effective skill level is pretty high for me, especially right out of the gate for character creation. I'm gonna have to just write that off as differences in our power levels for starting games.

Even a Path Skill-18 character is going to have a hard time not harming himself on the Body of Shadow spell. Your character with his effective skill of 26 is going to be around a safe threshold of 125, so granted he's less likely to blow himself up.. (Still can tho!). I'm really positive I don't want all my mages running around with Effective Skill 26 just to be able to do that kind of magic for 10 minutes.

Base skill of 15 is basic professional-level for some particular, specialized occupations - high-end RPM magery happens to be one of them; this is similar to regular Magic, as you need skill 15 to be considered a professional caster in the basic GURPS Magic system as well since so many things depend upon hitting that breakpoint. Note that this isn't effective skill - that's base skill level. A character with a base skill of 15 can still cast as if they have skill 25 relatively easily in RPM - get a +2 charm creation kit, +6 grimoire, and +2 from ritual mastery or a power source and they're already hitting 25.

Note that a 350-energy spell is probably the most difficult spell any caster in your campaign is likely to attempt aside from 'Ending the World' type spells. Thus, you don't need all your casters to be able to cast it - only the grandmasters should.

EDIT: Ah, you're running a DF/other low-TL game? Then yeah, you may have issues with the grimoire being out of your price range. I'm playing in a TL8 Monster Hunters game, and my character has Comfortable wealth, so he has $40,000 to spend - $3500 for a +6 Grimoire is very doable. If you are starting with characters at 250 CP, then you'll probably have lower skill, too (MH starts at 400 points) - but that just means you need that +2 charm kit (which you'll want to buy no matter how much it costs), +2 from Ritual Mastery, a further +1 from Symbol Drawing or Ritual Magic (or +2 from both), and a final +4 from a place of power.

[ronalmb]

Originally Posted by Langy

Note that a 350-energy spell is probably the most difficult spell any caster in your campaign is likely to attempt aside from 'Ending the World' type spells. Thus, you don't need all your casters to be able to cast it - only the grandmasters should.

I can see where you are coming from and it makes sense, but I kind of want something like Body of Shadow (duration 10 minutes) to be in the reach of more than just the grandmasters. Part of the problem is my group comes from that other game, so they (and me to some extent) have quite a bit of adapting when it comes to the magic systems, especially.

So far, tripling the safe threshold table seems to be make things a little more attainable (but risky), and keep things in reach. The grimoires could work, but we're playing more action-sorcerer types than the bookish carry around the grimoire wizards so I'll need to find a way to fluff-flavor the grimoires into something different.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by ronalmb

I can see where you are coming from and it makes sense, but I kind of want something like Body of Shadow (duration 10 minutes) to be in the reach of more than just the grandmasters. Part of the problem is my group comes from that other game, so they (and me to some extent) have quite a bit of adapting when it comes to the magic systems, especially.

So far, tripling the safe threshold table seems to be make things a little more attainable (but risky), and keep things in reach. The grimoires could work, but we're playing more action-sorcerer types than the bookish carry around the grimoire wizards so I'll need to find a way to fluff-flavor the grimoires into something different.

I wouldn't recommend altering the safe threshold table any. However, if you want to triple the effectiveness of a given level, you can mostly do so by redefining what a 'Greater Effect' is or how it impacts energy costs. Maybe Greater Effects don't alter energy costs at all - they just make the ritual more dangerous in some way, such as making it so any failure is treated as a critical failure (any quirk is a botch) unless you take a penalty to the skill roll.

Body of Shadow is so expensive because it has 2 Greater Effects in it, making it cost 5 times as much as normal - by altering the Greater Effect definition, you can make it a measly 70 energy.

[Celjabba]

Effective skill is not base skill.

To cast a high cost RPM spell, you will want
-trappings and components to reduce the cost.
-a place of power.
-a grimoire.
-a charm kit
-ritual mastery
...
And make sure luck is up.
A suitable higher purpose would also make sense to have for someone attempting a ritual costing 350...
This is not something any random magic user routinely cast on a whim...

A base skill 15 caster can probably raise his effective skill to 23-25 and reduce the ritual cost by 10% or more with suitable preparation. The odd of success are much better then, if not yet pleasant.
A 18 base skill master with a high-end grimoire, higher purpose, access to a strong place of power, full ceremonial regalia and rare components,an acolyte or two and a couple level of luck can approach the ritual with serenity, of course.

Celjabba

[ronalmb]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Effective skill is not base skill.

To cast a high cost RPM spell, you will want
-trappings and components to reduce the cost.
-a place of power.
-a grimoire.
-a charm kit
-ritual mastery
...
And make sure luck is up.
A suitable higher purpose would also make sense to have for someone attempting a ritual costing 350...
This is not something any random magic user routinely cast on a whim...

A base skill 15 caster can probably raise his effective skill to 23-25 and reduce the ritual cost by 10% or more with suitable preparation. The odd of success are much better then, if not yet pleasant.
A 18 base skill master with a high-end grimoire, higher purpose, access to a strong place of power, full ceremonial regalia and rare components,an acolyte or two and a couple level of luck can approach the ritual with serenity, of course.

Celjabba

If I used effective skill instead of base skill somewhere, it was an accident and I apologize. I do understand the difference between the two.

I understand the mechanics and what is required to successfully cast a 350 point spell is. I guess the major disconnect for me in this situation is that I want to have a world where a spell like Body of Shadow could be cast by someone other than a fully decked out master with all the trappings. He clearly won't be casting it willy nilly do to the sheer amount of time it takes to channel that much energy on the fly, but certainly as one of his allotted number of charms prepared with some work at home, Body of Shadow shouldn't be so powerful that it could "melt his brain" trying?

The point is, I really like what I see with RPM, but I thought it wouldn't be quite so rigid. It looks like, to really perform many of the spells, you need to have your effective skill at 25+, and this is for spells that I'm used to seeing accessible to more mid-skill casters in other systems. I don't want to use those systems (I love GURPS's flexibility and customization. I will never use another system) - I believe that RPM is strong enough that it will do what i want with just tweaking a number somewhere.

On the surface, the energy cost for the same spell in GURPS Magic isn't as back breaking. It would leave him drained, yes (10 Energy for 1 minute, 5 to maintain) but it is possible, I think.

I feel RPM is flexible enough it can allow for magic more accessible than only the most trained grandmasters?

Edit: I sure sound complainy and critical in this post, and I certainly don't want to be. GURPS is great. RPM is awesome. I really want to find a way to make it work for my needs.

[vierasmarius]

One thing you may want to take a look at is where the divide between Lesser and Greater effects is within your campaign world. If it's a setting similar to D&D, then perhaps even obvious spells like Fireball, Invisibility and Flight only require Lesser Effects (reserving Greater for Planar spells, Resurrection, Wish, etc). Or you could leave Greater Effect definitions as they are but reduce their multipliers (for example, x1.5 for 1, x2 for 2, x3 for 3, etc). This may be a major departure from the RAW, but as long as you're consistent in implementation it shouldn't be too gamebreaking. Remember that the NPCs will likewise have access to these spells - even non-casters can use Charms and Wards.

[ronalmb]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

One thing you may want to take a look at is where the divide between Lesser and Greater effects is within your campaign world. If it's a setting similar to D&D, then perhaps even obvious spells like Fireball, Invisibility and Flight only require Lesser Effects (reserving Greater for Planar spells, Resurrection, Wish, etc). Or you could leave Greater Effect definitions as they are but reduce their multipliers (for example, x1.5 for 1, x2 for 2, x3 for 3, etc). This may be a major departure from the RAW, but as long as you're consistent in implementation it shouldn't be too gamebreaking. Remember that the NPCs will likewise have access to these spells - even non-casters can use Charms and Wards.

The multiplier tweaks might work, I'll have to crunch the numbers -- I do like the idea of just tweaking the spell costs as to messing with the Safe Threshold numbers. I had considered not using the multipliers at all and imposing a penalty to successfully casting the spells instead - but I worried that some spells would get a lot cheaper than I intended.

[Christopher R. Rice]

As others have pointed out, a effective skill of 15 is...kind of low. A serious charm creator probably has a high-end Workspace Kit, maybe a place of power, grimoires for commonly created spells, and an apprentice or two that can help. Depending on your campaign setting, you may want to decide what is and isn't a Greater effect to offset the cost of some rituals (as has been previously suggested); let me also suggest you take Pyramid #3/66: The Laws of Magic for toying around with RPM in general.

[Pragmatic]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

grimoires for commonly created spells

Question that occurs to me:

Would a charm creator need separate grimoires for the "cast" and the "charm/conditional" versions of a ritual?