weapon design

vicky_molokh · 07-14-2014, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Weapon master adds +1 per die of ST damage to the damage of a weapon, based on the ST of the weapon master. As this weapon does not use the ST of the weapon master, it's unaffected.

That sort of logic seems to apply to Low-Tech bows, which use their own ST too.

Varyon · 07-14-2014, 02:47 PM

With bows, because they have their own ST, I would let Weapon Master boost the character's effective ST enough to get the damage bonus. I don't see any real problem with doing the same for crossbows and similar. So, if you've got an ST 16 character with Weapon Master (Gearbow) and enough skill for a +2 to damage, you're looking at 1d+4 thr, which is equivalent to ST 20 (in general, every +2 ST is +1 thr), so the character can use it at its maximum setting, or drop its ST for higher RoF.

Note above I specifically said Weapon Master (Gearbow). This is an entirely different beast from a normal bow, and is only somewhat-related to a crossbow. WM (Bow) shouldn't apply. I personally wouldn't allow for WM (Crossbow) either, although while WM (Bow and Gearbow) probably wouldn't be an appropriate pairing, WM (Crossbow and Gearbow) probably would be.

Anthony · 07-14-2014, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That sort of logic seems to apply to Low-Tech bows, which use their own ST too.

Arguably yes. In any case, the damage bonus for a low tech bow should be based on the user's ST, so if you're ST 11 and wielding a ST 17 crossbow, weapon master gives +1, not +2.

Lameth · 07-14-2014, 03:35 PM

Then logically, can you tell me why weapon master gives a + to damage. Is it because of your superior skill you know how to do more damage? or something else?

because then why not apply to guns as well, since the Gear bow is basically a gun. You set it for a ST of X and then shot. So why is the player being given a bonus to Damage for simply pulling the trigger?

i really want to give the PC the WM bonus, I’m just trying to see why. And also for when the gun aspected PC asks why does he get it and i don’t when we are basically both using a gun?

the gear bow works by tension and pulleys, then a pump action to lock a new bolt in place, then pull the trigger. If its set for a lower ST, the pump is easier to pull to shoot more bolts per second.

Anthony · 07-14-2014, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lameth

Then logically, can you tell me why weapon master gives a + to damage.

Unspecified, perhaps greater efficiency of muscle use (in which case, WM should probably allow you to use a heavier bow). This came up a while back on 'does WM apply to the extra dice from vibro weapons' and word of Kromm was no.

It would clean up WM (and brawling/karate) by a bit to have it give a striking ST bonus instead of a per-die bonus.

Varyon · 07-14-2014, 03:47 PM

Weapon Master is explicitly cinematic, although training-based bonuses to ST are probably realistic (just not necessarily to the extremes WM deals with). WM is basically "I'm so awesome with [weapon] I can deal far more damage than someone of equal strength," training-based ST bonuses (called Trained ST in Technical Grappling, where the concept was introduced) are more "I've built up musculature appropriate to this particular task as a side effect of training for it, and I've also learned how to most efficiently direct my strength for the task at hand." For the first, a character with WM (Gearbow) would, in theory, be able to pick up a weapon drawn by someone else of higher ST and fire it, doing more damage than the loader would have by sheer dent of being awesome. I personally treat Weapon Master as being more like Trained ST (if I don't just fold it into Trained ST outright).

Lameth · 07-14-2014, 04:18 PM

Anthony, how would you "fix" weapon master and karate?

It would would seem like a +1 or +2 to ST only is a little light for a 45pt advantage. right? how would you do it?

Anthony · 07-14-2014, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lameth

Anthony, how would you "fix" weapon master and karate?

Well, I'd be strongly tempted to trash the entire mechanic and replace it with something where you can specifically buy whatever level of damage bonus you want, with a note that anything above a certain amount is cinematic, but otherwise likely +2 at DX, +4 at DX+2.

As a side note, weapon master doesn't actually improve damage -- it increases your swing and thrust secondary attributes.

Lameth · 07-14-2014, 04:57 PM

As a side note, weapon master doesn't actually improve damage -- it increases your swing and thrust secondary attributes.[/QUOTE]

haha.. im sorry, whats the diffrence?

cosmicfish · 07-14-2014, 04:19 PM

The gearbow as described is no different than a crossbow, save for some details of the mechanism - the weapon is still powered by the user's strength. Like a crossbow, it stores that energy for some period before it is fired, and while the argument for WM does seem pretty weak with this kind of weapon, it does canonically apply to crossbows so it seems like it should apply here as well.

That having been said, I could definitely see a GM saying no WM for either crossbows or gearbows.

07-14-2014, 02:47 PM	#2
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: weapon design With bows, because they have their own ST, I would let Weapon Master boost the character's effective ST enough to get the damage bonus. I don't see any real problem with doing the same for crossbows and similar. So, if you've got an ST 16 character with Weapon Master (Gearbow) and enough skill for a +2 to damage, you're looking at 1d+4 thr, which is equivalent to ST 20 (in general, every +2 ST is +1 thr), so the character can use it at its maximum setting, or drop its ST for higher RoF. Note above I specifically said Weapon Master (Gearbow). This is an entirely different beast from a normal bow, and is only somewhat-related to a crossbow. WM (Bow) shouldn't apply. I personally wouldn't allow for WM (Crossbow) either, although while WM (Bow and Gearbow) probably wouldn't be an appropriate pairing, WM (Crossbow and Gearbow) probably would be.

07-14-2014, 03:35 PM	#4
Lameth Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: weapon design Then logically, can you tell me why weapon master gives a + to damage. Is it because of your superior skill you know how to do more damage? or something else? because then why not apply to guns as well, since the Gear bow is basically a gun. You set it for a ST of X and then shot. So why is the player being given a bonus to Damage for simply pulling the trigger? i really want to give the PC the WM bonus, I’m just trying to see why. And also for when the gun aspected PC asks why does he get it and i don’t when we are basically both using a gun? the gear bow works by tension and pulleys, then a pump action to lock a new bolt in place, then pull the trigger. If its set for a lower ST, the pump is easier to pull to shoot more bolts per second.

07-14-2014, 03:47 PM	#6
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: weapon design Weapon Master is explicitly cinematic, although training-based bonuses to ST are probably realistic (just not necessarily to the extremes WM deals with). WM is basically "I'm so awesome with [weapon] I can deal far more damage than someone of equal strength," training-based ST bonuses (called Trained ST in Technical Grappling, where the concept was introduced) are more "I've built up musculature appropriate to this particular task as a side effect of training for it, and I've also learned how to most efficiently direct my strength for the task at hand." For the first, a character with WM (Gearbow) would, in theory, be able to pick up a weapon drawn by someone else of higher ST and fire it, doing more damage than the loader would have by sheer dent of being awesome. I personally treat Weapon Master as being more like Trained ST (if I don't just fold it into Trained ST outright).

07-14-2014, 04:18 PM	#7
Lameth Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: weapon design Anthony, how would you "fix" weapon master and karate? It would would seem like a +1 or +2 to ST only is a little light for a 45pt advantage. right? how would you do it?

07-14-2014, 04:57 PM	#9
Lameth Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: weapon design As a side note, weapon master doesn't actually improve damage -- it increases your swing and thrust secondary attributes.[/QUOTE] haha.. im sorry, whats the diffrence?

07-14-2014, 04:19 PM	#10
cosmicfish Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: weapon design The gearbow as described is no different than a crossbow, save for some details of the mechanism - the weapon is still powered by the user's strength. Like a crossbow, it stores that energy for some period before it is fired, and while the argument for WM does seem pretty weak with this kind of weapon, it does canonically apply to crossbows so it seems like it should apply here as well. That having been said, I could definitely see a GM saying no WM for either crossbows or gearbows.