Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Fair enough, My experience is skills tend to go higher (but then stats at my table are probably lower). This makes sense when you consider a skill of 14 is seen as professional, experts being 16+ (I'm guessing most 250pt DF PCs are edging more towards experts in specific areas)

Canonically (IIRC), skill 12 is a professional, 14 or so is an expert. If you are working under different assumptions, this may be part of your disconnect.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ok, but does that replace weapon masters normal bonus (I'm guessing yes) that's a good tweak in terms of linking WM with your system, but may make WM a bit pricey.

Seeing as I noted that the increased progression was worse than baseline Weapon Master - yes, this replaces the normal bonus.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

You keep ignoring that using the karate bonus as a comparison point for melee weapon ignores that karate is starting at thrusting -1 cr for punch (or thrust cr for kick). So it not a fair comparison.

That's an inappropriate comparison, because weapon skills have 0 damage when unarmed. If we're allowing for weapons (which we must be for weapon skills to have any impact), then Karate should get one too. The bladed hand (MA226) does sw-2 cut or thr imp. Yes, this is inferior to most weapons (and personally I don't think the bladed hand should get swing damage), but is markedly better than thr-1 cr.

Regardless, I don't actually care what the starting point is. One could even argue that the bonus for Karate is more powerful than allowing a comparable bonus for, say, Broadsword - because it's seeing a greater percentage increase.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Again it not a question of realistic or not, it's a question of cheapness. I don't think your rule's effect isn't realistic (at lower levels of bonus), I just think you should pay for positive effects.

I think I'm having issues following you here. You clearly seem to have two different problems with the suggested rule. One is getting the bonus for free - which is easy enough of a fix, you can simply charge for it if you see fit. Your other problem is that you see it giving unrealistic results because it increases the chances of someone penetrating armor. Why I'm having trouble following you is that you seem to only realize one of these problems at a time - you consider it realistic when discussing if we should charge for it, then later turn around and consider it unrealistic when discussing its impact on armor.

So, before we go further - do you think this rule is realistic, or do you not?

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Stop right where? Leaving aside the whole ST18 is realistic (its not IMO, but lets leave that for another day you and I have done this before) my point was that High ST balances against itself because High ST can inflict more damage, but also wear more DR.

This assumes a character will only ever face foes that have the same ST. That is, when an ST 14 halberdier comes across an ST 10 squire wearing DR 5 munitions plate, he won't attack him but instead find someone of comparable ST to engage (as he otherwise has a 72% shot at cutting through).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

However as to your point, your rule has made cutting though DR6 all the more likely? So welcome to your rule I guess?

Yes, it exacerbates an existing problem. Fix the existing problem, and this is no longer an issue. With a more realistic damage scale, that ST 14 halberdier from above would do 1.4d swing, which would become 2.1d cut with the +5 from the halberd (see here). That's 1d*2, and a 1/6 chance of hitting a weak point in armor and managing to (just) break through isn't too unrealistic. Make our halberdier one of the best, with a skill of DX+7, and that jumps to 2.52d, or 1d*2+2. Now he's got a 50% chance of pulling it off, which I agree is a bit too high, but that's probably more an issue with resolution (3d6 probably gives a more accurate spread, but that would require multiplying the result by 0.84, changing things to a 1/4 chance of breaking through). A Fine or Very Fine halberd will, of course, make things a bit worse, but at least now we're a good deal closer to reality.
(I should note that if you want to comment on the alternative damage scale I reference above, the linked thread is the appropriate place to do so)