Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It was simply a demonstration of precisely what we're giving away. It's a free [2] that must be spent in a prescribed manner for investing [12] in a specific skill, which I don't think is going to really break the game.

No I get that, but it's still something for free is my point, even if you decide to call it reduced cost for skills.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I suppose it would depend on what you consider a ridiculously high DX, but most of the DF templates have at least one build that lacks any primary melee skill at DX+3 or better. Regardless, I have no issue with experts striking harder than "mere" professionals.

I'm guessing those particular DF builds are not the melee combat orientated ones. Basically my point was a reduction that never applies is not in fact a deduction in any meaningful way.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I mentioned it there because you had referenced my Very Fast Progression, which requires Weapon Master.

Sorry I missed that, is that in addition to the fast progression bonuses?

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't consider unarmed parries to be intrinsic to Karate and Brawling, I consider them to be intrinsic to fighting unarmed. Note both Karate and Brawling can be used with weapons, and your problem goes away if you equip a tonfa in Reverse Grip (well, goes away for Karate and should go away for Brawling).

OK but the majority of attacks from brawling and karate are unarmed so limited to a single dice thrusting cr damage. I.e exactly the range of damage were an extra point or two will have least effect

A ST10 chap's basic punch is 1d-3 after all.

Originally Posted by Varyon

While I prefer treating +1 to Striking ST as +1 to damage across the board (because I feel thrust is currently undervalued), if you go with it as simply being +1 Striking ST (which is more realistic) you need to have Brawling at DX+4 or Boxing/Karate at DX+7 to reach the current RAW maximum damage output for those skills, and need to have Brawling at DX+10 and Boxing/Karate at DX+13 to exceed them.

Yes but we're not talking about karate and brawling with progression, we're talking about various melee skills. The bonus from karate is limited to thrusting (and a low damage cr thrusting attack at that). If you were comparing the bonuses to karate to melee weapons that are thrust-1 cr, it would be a valid comparison

To get +2 on a swung attack (i.e to match the karate max bonus) you'll only need DX+4 on avg, DX+2 on fast and DX+1 on V.fast

Originally Posted by Varyon

I submit that if characters having slightly-higher-than-expected ST results in armor being unrealistically overcome, that's an issue with the melee damage vs armor rules and not with the effect that is (realistically) giving characters slightly higher than expected ST.

well we argue about what "slightly" means here of course

and we can get into Higher than average ST's damage vs. higher than average ST's ability to wear protection. (I actually tend to find they even out).

However even if it is an issue, not sure why making it worse is the way to go?

Originally Posted by Varyon

Requiring characters to pay points for their increased ST won't solve this problem.

No but needing to pay points will act as a limiting factor on it. But the point is there's no corresponding mitigation to your tweak, i.e no balancing effect.

A ST barbarian chops through DR6 plate even with edge protection we agree this is 'bad'. But in a ST15-18 world he won't ever be going up against DR6 plate it will be DR12 or higher plate. I.e balance, increased ST in melee damage is countered by increased ST lifting ability.

There's not counter balance to high skill giving more damage, so with no counter it will over match especially as it will also add on top of everything else (watch out for ST18 barbarians with high skills of course).

There's no equivalent free, realistic bonus side effect for "people who trained a lot to fight in armour are able to get more benefit from it" (although given 5 mins I could probably make one up to be fair).

Thing is cinematic games where mighty heroes cleave through armour with either heroic strength or heroic skill or a heady combination of both that's fine, it just not realistic.