Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ok right, but as you say it's giving it away free (just it doesn't matter of you call it free extra damage or skill that's reduced in cost by the amount the extra damage would otherwise cost).

It was simply a demonstration of precisely what we're giving away. It's a free [2] that must be spent in a prescribed manner for investing [12] in a specific skill, which I don't think is going to really break the game.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

How many melee combat orientated PCs do you know who have primary combat skills less than DX+3. (Barring oddball super generalists with ridiculously high DXs of course).

I suppose it would depend on what you consider a ridiculously high DX, but most of the DF templates have at least one build that lacks any primary melee skill at DX+3 or better. Regardless, I have no issue with experts striking harder than "mere" professionals.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Also it keep getting mentioned but weapon master is cinematic advantage that cost pts, it's not a very useful as a comparison point for realistic tweaks that don't.

I mentioned it there because you had referenced my Very Fast Progression, which requires Weapon Master.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Karate/brawling do give free bonuses to damage but they are limited to +1/+2 to thrusting damage and come with their own inherent trade offs, (unarmed parries for example).

I don't consider unarmed parries to be intrinsic to Karate and Brawling, I consider them to be intrinsic to fighting unarmed. Note both Karate and Brawling can be used with weapons, and your problem goes away if you equip a tonfa in Reverse Grip (well, goes away for Karate and should go away for Brawling).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Only as I replied to his post it's not really true at realistic levels (which is the context of what we're talking about). That +2 per dice won't ever apply until your talking about ST19 boxers and brawlers. So it will only ever be +1 or +2. And that really doesn't take very much skill in your progression

While I prefer treating +1 to Striking ST as +1 to damage across the board (because I feel thrust is currently undervalued), if you go with it as simply being +1 Striking ST (which is more realistic) you need to have Brawling at DX+4 or Boxing/Karate at DX+7 to reach the current RAW maximum damage output for those skills, and need to have Brawling at DX+10 and Boxing/Karate at DX+13 to exceed them.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Sorry I pulled this out specifically because I think it's describing a key difference of starting point between us on this. If you already think the armour vs. melee damage is borked then yes I can understand why a bit more imbalance won't amount to much. However I don't, but I do recognise that there pretty narrow set of combinations of variables where I can still think this. And this tweak increases the chances of it no longer being true (for me).

I submit that if characters having slightly-higher-than-expected ST results in armor being unrealistically overcome, that's an issue with the melee damage vs armor rules and not with the effect that is (realistically) giving characters slightly higher than expected ST. Requiring characters to pay points for their increased ST won't solve this problem.