Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Sorry I don't understand, how are you reducing the cost of skill? The increase on ST just appears to be a freebie on top of the skill?

It's an effective decrease in cost. +3 to skill, once you're past the learning curve, costs [12]. Striking ST (Single Skill) costs [2]. If we're giving the latter away for free to those who purchase the former, that means we've reduced the price of a "+3 to Skill, +1 to Striking ST for that skill" Metatrait from [14] to [12], which would be the same thing as if we reduced the price of that +3 to skill to [10].

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Also I don't see where your getting Striking +1 for every 3 levels from? You table had DX+4 with +2, +3 & +4 ST for Average, fast and v.fast progression (that's a free 4,6 & 8 pts each) the +1 St per +3 levels starts after that.

I'm skipping the learning curve portion, but do note that going from Average to Fast progression is either a +2 to skill difficulty (as in Brawling to Karate) or a +1 to skill difficulty and significant drawbacks (as in Brawling to Boxing). Very Fast is only available if you've invested points into Weapon Master, and is typically a worse deal than that is in RAW (where it's a +60% to damage). That said, you certainly do get better returns during the learning curve portion, but that's realistic, and I don't think an extra +2 or +3 to Striking ST is likely to truly break anything that wasn't broken to begin with.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

To be honest if your allowing +1ST specialised by skill at 2pts per level I'd argue that's cheap enough as is.

It's a fair price, and I can certainly see cause to charge for it with high skill as a justification, but GURPS already gives an effective ST bonus for high skill (for unarmed fighters and those with Weapon Master), so changing it to be more universal doesn't seem problematic to me.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

While I agree training allows you to hit harder then the untrained, I'm actually thinking realistically that there's hard upper limit to how much value is added just from training. (which would match why the bonus for Karate and boxing tops out at +2 damage)

Realistically, training probably does cap out at some point - but as Douglas Cole noted, you need to have ridiculously high skill before you even meet the Boxing/Karate bonus, at which point you are almost invariably already in the realm of cinematic.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

ST+10 is more than triple damage (ST10 avg is 3.5, ST20 avg is 12.5, and will defeat edge protection (which is double DR).

I know you were responding to the comment that +10 still wasn't much damage, but note here that to get ST+10 with a Fast Progression skill would require you to have the skill at DX+25, which is ridiculous in a realistic campaign. To get your tripled swing damage, you probably need to have the skill at DX+28 instead, because (unless using something like my skill system) the only skills with Fast Progression are Boxing and Karate, both of which are restricted to thrust.

Once you're at cinematic levels of skill, I don't have an issue with characters cutting through armor.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It's an effective decrease in cost. +3 to skill, once you're past the learning curve, costs [12]. Striking ST (Single Skill) costs [2]. If we're giving the latter away for free to those who purchase the former, that means we've reduced the price of a "+3 to Skill, +1 to Striking ST for that skill" Metatrait from [14] to [12], which would be the same thing as if we reduced the price of that +3 to skill to [10].

Ok right, but as you say it's giving it away free (just it doesn't matter of you call it free extra damage or skill that's reduced in cost by the amount the extra damage would otherwise cost).

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'm skipping the learning curve portion, but do note that going from Average to Fast progression is either a +2 to skill difficulty (as in Brawling to Karate) or a +1 to skill difficulty and significant drawbacks (as in Brawling to Boxing). Very Fast is only available if you've invested points into Weapon Master, and is typically a worse deal than that is in RAW (where it's a +60% to damage). That said, you certainly do get better returns during the learning curve portion, but that's realistic, and I don't think an extra +2 or +3 to Striking ST is likely to truly break anything that wasn't broken to begin with.

But its also the benefit that everyone will get almost as matter of course. How many melee combat orientated PCs do you know who have primary combat skills less than DX+3. (Barring oddball super generalists with ridiculously high DXs of course).

Again it's not matter of not accepting that trained warriors hit harder than the rest of us (certainly at the lower levels of bonus) it's a matter of them not having to pay for it in GURPS terms. As I mentioned earlier World class runners tend to have high HT and fit as well as high running skill, and all are linked and in part due to the benefits of training, but should we give them discount on related advantages once their skill increases?

TBH we could probably think of realistically related and/or linked advantages and bonuses for most skills.

Also it keep getting mentioned but weapon master is cinematic advantage that cost pts, it's not a very useful as a comparison point for realistic tweaks that don't.

Originally Posted by Varyon

It's a fair price, and I can certainly see cause to charge for it with high skill as a justification, but GURPS already gives an effective ST bonus for high skill (for unarmed fighters and those with Weapon Master), so changing it to be more universal doesn't seem problematic to me.

Well weapon master costs at a minimum 20 pts and is cinematic so really not seeing why it's being dragged out as supportive comparison for a free realistic increase to damage.

Karate/brawling do give free bonuses to damage but they are limited to +1/+2 to thrusting damage and come with their own inherent trade offs, (unarmed parries for example).

Originally Posted by Varyon

Realistically, training probably does cap out at some point - but as Douglas Cole noted, you need to have ridiculously high skill before you even meet the Boxing/Karate bonus, at which point you are almost invariably already in the realm of cinematic.

Only as I replied to his post it's not really true at realistic levels (which is the context of what we're talking about). That +2 per dice won't ever apply until your talking about ST19 boxers and brawlers. So it will only ever be +1 or +2. And that really doesn't take very much skill in your progression

Originally Posted by Varyon

...Once you're at cinematic levels of skill, I don't have an issue with characters cutting through armor.

I cut a bit here since it was all from typo anyway, but this last bit is key. I have no problem with all this with a cinematic setting. In fact it give you the best of both worlds. The PC's armour will be realistic against mooks, and the mooks armour will be cinematic against the high skill PC's.

But what I don't like is two highly skilled fighters basically ignoring each others armour to a great extent (edge protection as we have discussed at grate length is not quite the covers all solution here). Both in terms of beating armour, and the point that high skill allows you go around armour.

Armour is a mechanical equaliser in many ways, Obviously it reduces the damage you take, but it addresses a skill imbalance to an extant as well. A high skilled fighter facing someone in armour has to leverage his skill to to get around armour, which means he's limited in how else he chooses to leverage a skill advantage.

What I don't want is high skill fighters just spamming deceptive attacks to ensure hitting and relying on busting through armour to damage.

Originally Posted by Varyon

and I don't think an extra +2 or +3 to Striking ST is likely to truly break anything that wasn't broken to begin with.

Sorry I pulled this out specifically because I think it's describing a key difference of starting point between us on this. If you already think the armour vs. melee damage is borked then yes I can understand why a bit more imbalance won't amount to much. However I don't, but I do recognise that there pretty narrow set of combinations of variables where I can still think this. And this tweak increases the chances of it no longer being true (for me).

However that difference is not either of us is objectively right or wrong, but probably more to do with the decision we make at our own tables when GMing.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ok right, but as you say it's giving it away free (just it doesn't matter of you call it free extra damage or skill that's reduced in cost by the amount the extra damage would otherwise cost).

It was simply a demonstration of precisely what we're giving away. It's a free [2] that must be spent in a prescribed manner for investing [12] in a specific skill, which I don't think is going to really break the game.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

How many melee combat orientated PCs do you know who have primary combat skills less than DX+3. (Barring oddball super generalists with ridiculously high DXs of course).

I suppose it would depend on what you consider a ridiculously high DX, but most of the DF templates have at least one build that lacks any primary melee skill at DX+3 or better. Regardless, I have no issue with experts striking harder than "mere" professionals.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Also it keep getting mentioned but weapon master is cinematic advantage that cost pts, it's not a very useful as a comparison point for realistic tweaks that don't.

I mentioned it there because you had referenced my Very Fast Progression, which requires Weapon Master.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Karate/brawling do give free bonuses to damage but they are limited to +1/+2 to thrusting damage and come with their own inherent trade offs, (unarmed parries for example).

I don't consider unarmed parries to be intrinsic to Karate and Brawling, I consider them to be intrinsic to fighting unarmed. Note both Karate and Brawling can be used with weapons, and your problem goes away if you equip a tonfa in Reverse Grip (well, goes away for Karate and should go away for Brawling).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Only as I replied to his post it's not really true at realistic levels (which is the context of what we're talking about). That +2 per dice won't ever apply until your talking about ST19 boxers and brawlers. So it will only ever be +1 or +2. And that really doesn't take very much skill in your progression

While I prefer treating +1 to Striking ST as +1 to damage across the board (because I feel thrust is currently undervalued), if you go with it as simply being +1 Striking ST (which is more realistic) you need to have Brawling at DX+4 or Boxing/Karate at DX+7 to reach the current RAW maximum damage output for those skills, and need to have Brawling at DX+10 and Boxing/Karate at DX+13 to exceed them.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Sorry I pulled this out specifically because I think it's describing a key difference of starting point between us on this. If you already think the armour vs. melee damage is borked then yes I can understand why a bit more imbalance won't amount to much. However I don't, but I do recognise that there pretty narrow set of combinations of variables where I can still think this. And this tweak increases the chances of it no longer being true (for me).

I submit that if characters having slightly-higher-than-expected ST results in armor being unrealistically overcome, that's an issue with the melee damage vs armor rules and not with the effect that is (realistically) giving characters slightly higher than expected ST. Requiring characters to pay points for their increased ST won't solve this problem.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It was simply a demonstration of precisely what we're giving away. It's a free [2] that must be spent in a prescribed manner for investing [12] in a specific skill, which I don't think is going to really break the game.

No I get that, but it's still something for free is my point, even if you decide to call it reduced cost for skills.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I suppose it would depend on what you consider a ridiculously high DX, but most of the DF templates have at least one build that lacks any primary melee skill at DX+3 or better. Regardless, I have no issue with experts striking harder than "mere" professionals.

I'm guessing those particular DF builds are not the melee combat orientated ones. Basically my point was a reduction that never applies is not in fact a deduction in any meaningful way.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I mentioned it there because you had referenced my Very Fast Progression, which requires Weapon Master.

Sorry I missed that, is that in addition to the fast progression bonuses?

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't consider unarmed parries to be intrinsic to Karate and Brawling, I consider them to be intrinsic to fighting unarmed. Note both Karate and Brawling can be used with weapons, and your problem goes away if you equip a tonfa in Reverse Grip (well, goes away for Karate and should go away for Brawling).

OK but the majority of attacks from brawling and karate are unarmed so limited to a single dice thrusting cr damage. I.e exactly the range of damage were an extra point or two will have least effect

A ST10 chap's basic punch is 1d-3 after all.

Originally Posted by Varyon

While I prefer treating +1 to Striking ST as +1 to damage across the board (because I feel thrust is currently undervalued), if you go with it as simply being +1 Striking ST (which is more realistic) you need to have Brawling at DX+4 or Boxing/Karate at DX+7 to reach the current RAW maximum damage output for those skills, and need to have Brawling at DX+10 and Boxing/Karate at DX+13 to exceed them.

Yes but we're not talking about karate and brawling with progression, we're talking about various melee skills. The bonus from karate is limited to thrusting (and a low damage cr thrusting attack at that). If you were comparing the bonuses to karate to melee weapons that are thrust-1 cr, it would be a valid comparison

To get +2 on a swung attack (i.e to match the karate max bonus) you'll only need DX+4 on avg, DX+2 on fast and DX+1 on V.fast

Originally Posted by Varyon

I submit that if characters having slightly-higher-than-expected ST results in armor being unrealistically overcome, that's an issue with the melee damage vs armor rules and not with the effect that is (realistically) giving characters slightly higher than expected ST.

well we argue about what "slightly" means here of course

and we can get into Higher than average ST's damage vs. higher than average ST's ability to wear protection. (I actually tend to find they even out).

However even if it is an issue, not sure why making it worse is the way to go?

Originally Posted by Varyon

Requiring characters to pay points for their increased ST won't solve this problem.

No but needing to pay points will act as a limiting factor on it. But the point is there's no corresponding mitigation to your tweak, i.e no balancing effect.

A ST barbarian chops through DR6 plate even with edge protection we agree this is 'bad'. But in a ST15-18 world he won't ever be going up against DR6 plate it will be DR12 or higher plate. I.e balance, increased ST in melee damage is countered by increased ST lifting ability.

There's not counter balance to high skill giving more damage, so with no counter it will over match especially as it will also add on top of everything else (watch out for ST18 barbarians with high skills of course).

There's no equivalent free, realistic bonus side effect for "people who trained a lot to fight in armour are able to get more benefit from it" (although given 5 mins I could probably make one up to be fair).

Thing is cinematic games where mighty heroes cleave through armour with either heroic strength or heroic skill or a heady combination of both that's fine, it just not realistic.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I'm guessing those particular DF builds are not the melee combat orientated ones. Basically my point was a reduction that never applies is not in fact a deduction in any meaningful way.

I actually only looked at the melee combat oriented ones. The Barbarian only has DX+3 with shields unless going for a two-handed option, a Flail-wielding Holy Warrior similarly only has DX+3 with shields, a three-skill Knight lacks any melee combat skill above DX+2, and no Martial Artist has one above DX+2.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Sorry I missed that, is that in addition to the fast progression bonuses?

Weapon Master gives +1 to progression, meaning Slow becomes Average, Average becomes Fast, and Fast becomes Very Fast.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Yes but we're not talking about karate and brawling with progression, we're talking about various melee skills. The bonus from karate is limited to thrusting (and a low damage cr thrusting attack at that). If you were comparing the bonuses to karate to melee weapons that are thrust-1 cr, it would be a valid comparison

To get +2 on a swung attack (i.e to match the karate max bonus) you'll only need DX+4 on avg, DX+2 on fast and DX+1 on V.fast

There are no Fast Progression armed skills unless allowing Weapon Master or using my system, where getting to that point increases difficulty by 2 steps (Easy to Hard, Average to Very Hard). Ignoring Weapon Master, this works out to getting the same damage bonus for a given point investment (DX+2 for a Hard skill costs as much as DX+4 for an Easy skill). So, yes, you only need DX+4 to match Karate's current maximum bonus when using swings, and DX+7 to exceed it. As DX+7 is likely to mark you as one of the most competent warriors in your region, I see no issue with it giving such a bonus. Fast Progression armed skills get there at only DX+4, but those are skills where the training specifically emphasizes building up the necessary muscles and learning how to hit much harder, so I'm honestly alright with that.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

However even if it is an issue, not sure why making it worse is the way to go?

It isn't, but I don't see "This realistic rule shouldn't be implemented because it makes this other unrealistic rule more unrealistic" as a valid argument. If the problem lies with the unrealistic rule, you change that one rather than abandoning a realistic one.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

No but needing to pay points will act as a limiting factor on it. But the point is there's no corresponding mitigation to your tweak, i.e no balancing effect.

It's a difference of [2] points per +1 TST. That's not likely to add up to a lot - a character with an Average Progression skill at DX+10 is probably a [300]+ character, at which point the "free" [8] he's managed to get from this rule probably isn't a huge concern.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

A ST barbarian chops through DR6 plate even with edge protection we agree this is 'bad'. But in a ST18 world he won't ever be going up against DR6 plate

Stop right there. ST 18 is possible for humans, and humans are unable to get through DR 6 plate. You think this means that ST 18 humans will only ever face ST 18 humans wearing armor that has been scaled to encumber them as much as DR 6 plate encumbers a person with ST 10. If you gave Andre the Giant a sword, and trained him in its use, it wouldn't matter if he were facing an average man in DR 6 plate or a clone of himself in DR 12, he wouldn't be able to chop through the plate.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

There's no equivalent free, realistic bonus side effect for "people who trained a lot to fight in armour are able to get more benefit from it" (although given 5 mins I could probably make one up to be fair).

People who have trained a lot to fight in armor are indeed going to have strengthened their muscles for purposes of carrying heavy weight around, but this would be a generic boost to Lifting ST, not something armor specific. However, as no GURPS skill is necessary to wear armor (PC's are assumed to be perfectly comfortable with armor on, only suffering for its weight), there really isn't any way to gauge this, so simply charging for Lifting ST is probably the most appropriate. Of course, I'd be tempted to give a character who has purchased Lifting ST with the justification of "I've fought a lot in armor," and who also has a lot of points in skills appropriate to such a character (Armory, Soldier, melee weapons, etc), a bonus when defending against attacks that exploit armor weaknesses (Hitting 'Em Where it Hurts, Armor Chinks, and Armor Gaps) - if the bonus makes the difference, the foe instead hits where the armor defends normally.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, something like a +2 DB when the foe targets a subsection of a hit location, where success by DB results in them instead striking the most heavily-armored part of that subsection, would be a pretty solid Perk. Just wearing bracers and the foe targets your upper arm? +2 to try and get them to hit the bracers instead. Just wearing a pectoral and the foe targets your stomach? +2 to try and get them to hit the pectoral instead. Probably cinematic when you've only got 1/6 protection on the hit location, but probably realistic when up against a foe exploiting Chinks and Armor Gaps.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I actually only looked at the melee combat oriented ones. The Barbarian only has DX+3 with shields unless going for a two-handed option, a Flail-wielding Holy Warrior similarly only has DX+3 with shields, a three-skill Knight lacks any melee combat skill above DX+2, and no Martial Artist has one above DX+2.

Fair enough, My experience is skills tend to go higher (but then stats at my table are probably lower). This makes sense when you consider a skill of 14 is seen as professional, experts being 16+ (I'm guessing most 250pt DF PCs are edging more towards experts in specific areas)

Originally Posted by Varyon

Weapon Master gives +1 to progression, meaning Slow becomes Average, Average becomes Fast, and Fast becomes Very Fast.

Ok, but does that replace weapon masters normal bonus (I'm guessing yes) that's a good tweak in terms of linking WM with your system, but may make WM a bit pricey.

Originally Posted by Varyon

There are no Fast Progression armed skills unless allowing Weapon Master or using my system, where getting to that point increases difficulty by 2 steps (Easy to Hard, Average to Very Hard). Ignoring Weapon Master, this works out to getting the same damage bonus for a given point investment (DX+2 for a Hard skill costs as much as DX+4 for an Easy skill). So, yes, you only need DX+4 to match Karate's current maximum bonus when using swings, and DX+7 to exceed it. As DX+7 is likely to mark you as one of the most competent warriors in your region, I see no issue with it giving such a bonus. Fast Progression armed skills get there at only DX+4, but those are skills where the training specifically emphasizes building up the necessary muscles and learning how to hit much harder, so I'm honestly alright with that.

You keep ignoring that using the karate bonus as a comparison point for melee weapon ignores that karate is starting at thrusting -1 cr for punch (or thrust cr for kick). So it not a fair comparison.

Originally Posted by Varyon

It isn't, but I don't see "This realistic rule shouldn't be implemented because it makes this other unrealistic rule more unrealistic" as a valid argument. If the problem lies with the unrealistic rule, you change that one rather than abandoning a realistic one.

Again it not a question of realistic or not, it's a question of cheapness. I don't think your rule's effect isn't realistic (at lower levels of bonus), I just think you should pay for positive effects.
There are lots of realistic things in GURPS there realism doesn't mean they don't cost points.

But yes if you going to up DR or reduce damage in some way this tweak's benefit will change.

Originally Posted by Varyon

It's a difference of [2] points per +1 TST. That's not likely to add up to a lot - a character with an Average Progression skill at DX+10 is probably a [300]+ character, at which point the "free" [8] he's managed to get from this rule probably isn't a huge concern.

Which makes me think 2pts is probably to cheap TBH (but I agree its RAW). But yes 300pt is a lot of realistic Character.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Stop right there. ST 18 is possible for humans, and humans are unable to get through DR 6 plate. You think this means that ST 18 humans will only ever face ST 18 humans wearing armor that has been scaled to encumber them as much as DR 6 plate encumbers a person with ST 10. If you gave Andre the Giant a sword, and trained him in its use, it wouldn't matter if he were facing an average man in DR 6 plate or a clone of himself in DR 12, he wouldn't be able to chop through the plate.

Stop right where? Leaving aside the whole ST18 is realistic (its not IMO, but lets leave that for another day you and I have done this before) my point was that High ST balances against itself because High ST can inflict more damage, but also wear more DR. I.e in like for like comparison ST and DR scales.

However as to your point, your rule has made cutting though DR6 all the more likely? So welcome to your rule I guess?

Andre with his ST18 does basic 3d with swing, so give him a Broadsword and its 3d+1 but give him a skill of DX+4 and assuming broadsword is avg progression (you still haven't said which weapons would be what progression) and he's doing 3d+4. That means he will be cutting through DR6 even with edge protection 75% of the time, as opposed to 37% of the time without the tweak.

Defeating armour has been my issue with this tweak all the way through.

As I said before if you going to reduce melee damage (or increase DR) then fine my balance of opinion on this tweak will change.

EDIT: ah spotted a possible point of miscommunication here I wasn't saying "bad" ironically (as in "bad" = good). But used the bunny ears to indicated all sorts of unwritten reasons why it's bad that we already agree on. Its just that one them which we may not agree on is that I think one of the reasons why ST18 chaps cutting through DR6 plate is un-realistic is because ST18 chaps in abstract are not realistic, and if they were likely than DR6 plate would itself not be the realistic defence employed.

Originally Posted by Varyon

People who have trained a lot to fight in armor are indeed going to have strengthened their muscles for purposes of carrying heavy weight around, but this would be a generic boost to Lifting ST, not something armor specific. However, as no GURPS skill is necessary to wear armor (PC's are assumed to be perfectly comfortable with armor on, only suffering for its weight), there really isn't any way to gauge this, so simply charging for Lifting ST is probably the most appropriate. Of course, I'd be tempted to give a character who has purchased Lifting ST with the justification of "I've fought a lot in armor," and who also has a lot of points in skills appropriate to such a character (Armory, Soldier, melee weapons, etc), a bonus when defending against attacks that exploit armor weaknesses (Hitting 'Em Where it Hurts, Armor Chinks, and Armor Gaps) - if the bonus makes the difference, the foe instead hits where the armor defends normally.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, something like a +2 DB when the foe targets a subsection of a hit location, where success by DB results in them instead striking the most heavily-armored part of that subsection, would be a pretty solid Perk. Just wearing bracers and the foe targets your upper arm? +2 to try and get them to hit the bracers instead. Just wearing a pectoral and the foe targets your stomach? +2 to try and get them to hit the pectoral instead. Probably cinematic when you've only got 1/6 protection on the hit location, but probably realistic when up against a foe exploiting Chinks and Armor Gaps.

Well as I said there's certainly ways to buff DR, or reduce the negative effects of DR vs. this tweak.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Fair enough, My experience is skills tend to go higher (but then stats at my table are probably lower). This makes sense when you consider a skill of 14 is seen as professional, experts being 16+ (I'm guessing most 250pt DF PCs are edging more towards experts in specific areas)

Canonically (IIRC), skill 12 is a professional, 14 or so is an expert. If you are working under different assumptions, this may be part of your disconnect.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ok, but does that replace weapon masters normal bonus (I'm guessing yes) that's a good tweak in terms of linking WM with your system, but may make WM a bit pricey.

Seeing as I noted that the increased progression was worse than baseline Weapon Master - yes, this replaces the normal bonus.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

You keep ignoring that using the karate bonus as a comparison point for melee weapon ignores that karate is starting at thrusting -1 cr for punch (or thrust cr for kick). So it not a fair comparison.

That's an inappropriate comparison, because weapon skills have 0 damage when unarmed. If we're allowing for weapons (which we must be for weapon skills to have any impact), then Karate should get one too. The bladed hand (MA226) does sw-2 cut or thr imp. Yes, this is inferior to most weapons (and personally I don't think the bladed hand should get swing damage), but is markedly better than thr-1 cr.

Regardless, I don't actually care what the starting point is. One could even argue that the bonus for Karate is more powerful than allowing a comparable bonus for, say, Broadsword - because it's seeing a greater percentage increase.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Again it not a question of realistic or not, it's a question of cheapness. I don't think your rule's effect isn't realistic (at lower levels of bonus), I just think you should pay for positive effects.

I think I'm having issues following you here. You clearly seem to have two different problems with the suggested rule. One is getting the bonus for free - which is easy enough of a fix, you can simply charge for it if you see fit. Your other problem is that you see it giving unrealistic results because it increases the chances of someone penetrating armor. Why I'm having trouble following you is that you seem to only realize one of these problems at a time - you consider it realistic when discussing if we should charge for it, then later turn around and consider it unrealistic when discussing its impact on armor.

So, before we go further - do you think this rule is realistic, or do you not?

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Stop right where? Leaving aside the whole ST18 is realistic (its not IMO, but lets leave that for another day you and I have done this before) my point was that High ST balances against itself because High ST can inflict more damage, but also wear more DR.

This assumes a character will only ever face foes that have the same ST. That is, when an ST 14 halberdier comes across an ST 10 squire wearing DR 5 munitions plate, he won't attack him but instead find someone of comparable ST to engage (as he otherwise has a 72% shot at cutting through).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

However as to your point, your rule has made cutting though DR6 all the more likely? So welcome to your rule I guess?

Yes, it exacerbates an existing problem. Fix the existing problem, and this is no longer an issue. With a more realistic damage scale, that ST 14 halberdier from above would do 1.4d swing, which would become 2.1d cut with the +5 from the halberd (see here). That's 1d*2, and a 1/6 chance of hitting a weak point in armor and managing to (just) break through isn't too unrealistic. Make our halberdier one of the best, with a skill of DX+7, and that jumps to 2.52d, or 1d*2+2. Now he's got a 50% chance of pulling it off, which I agree is a bit too high, but that's probably more an issue with resolution (3d6 probably gives a more accurate spread, but that would require multiplying the result by 0.84, changing things to a 1/4 chance of breaking through). A Fine or Very Fine halberd will, of course, make things a bit worse, but at least now we're a good deal closer to reality.
(I should note that if you want to comment on the alternative damage scale I reference above, the linked thread is the appropriate place to do so)