Reverse Missiles - Can you dodge?

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I can't find my copy of 3e magic at the moment, but IIRC it specified that you couldn't dodge the first reflected shot, but you could dodge subsequent reflected shots (why you are continuing to shoot at someone with reverse missiles is not addressed).

Testing for the duration to expire? Trying to still scare the protected target (people can still be scared by things they "know" they are protected against)? Protected subject leaping into the way of what would have otherwise been a successful shot against someone/something else? Failed "Curious" SC check?

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I can't find my copy of 3e magic at the moment, but IIRC it specified that you couldn't dodge the first reflected shot, but you could dodge subsequent reflected shots (why you are continuing to shoot at someone with reverse missiles is not addressed).

Reverse Missiles is the maintained spell. There is also the Blocking version, and you don't know which is up until the second shot (or if they only have the Blocking one, to drain their FP).

[Dammann]

Originally Posted by Otaku

I have to ask, because apparently the RAW is still the same as from 2e Magic (which is to say 3e GURPS) there was something that never made sense to me but it rarely came up in play so I just went with it.

How is the exception at all applicable?

If the attacker misses his "to hit roll", then isn't he missing the target protected by Reverse Missile and thus the Spell never "activates" against that particular shot? Even in if the attacker missed a roll against a different target, crashing into Reverse Missile by accident, the spell should return the shot along the path from which it came, in which case the original target should risk being hit (if still in the line of fire) and then the attacker should still risk being hit (again, if still in the line of fire).

I know it is "magic", but it strikes me as more complicated to have the Spell work in any fashion but reversing the missile and sending it back along the path from which it came at (roughly) the same speed at which it hit the Reverse Missile effect.

My sense of the intent* is that shooting at a magic user protected by Reverse Missiles would indicate that he is so protected, even for unsuccessful attacks. That way, the shooter gets information, even on a miss. It doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you envision a big bubble of reverse-missile-itude around the caster.


*starting anything with a phrase like that makes it seem pretty suspect, but it does seem ambiguous and open to interpretation of what is supposed to be going on

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Dammann

My sense of the intent* is that shooting at a magic user protected by Reverse Missiles would indicate that he is so protected, even for unsuccessful attacks. That way, the shooter gets information, even on a miss. It doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you envision a big bubble of reverse-missile-itude around the caster.


*starting anything with a phrase like that makes it seem pretty suspect, but it does seem ambiguous and open to interpretation of what is supposed to be going on

The spell is intended to prevent projectiles from even touching the mage, so, the spell has to extend away from their body a bit. Reflecting missed shots is just a side effect, that occasionally works out nicely vs explosives.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Dammann

My sense of the intent* is that shooting at a magic user protected by Reverse Missiles would indicate that he is so protected, even for unsuccessful attacks. That way, the shooter gets information, even on a miss. It doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you envision a big bubble of reverse-missile-itude around the caster.


*starting anything with a phrase like that makes it seem pretty suspect, but it does seem ambiguous and open to interpretation of what is supposed to be going on

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The spell is intended to prevent projectiles from even touching the mage, so, the spell has to extend away from their body a bit. Reflecting missed shots is just a side effect, that occasionally works out nicely vs explosives.

That is just it... even if you miss the caster, in order for the spell to work you still need to be within its area of effect. I know in 3e it is treated as a regular Spell, and I think that is the problem; it strikes me as more of an Area Spell or some sort of cross between the two (an Area Spell that that can be centered on a moving subject). I am pressed for time so I will not be surprised in the slightest to find that such a thing is covered in material I already own.

So again... if I fire an arrow at a someone protected by Reverse Missile and I miss, it seems strange that the "area of effect" and mechanics involved in "reversing" the missiles are such that my missile isn't just... well... reversed back at me. I may have missed the subject of the spell, but if I still hit the area of effect, my missile should be reversed to follow its previous path right back at me... shouldn't it?

[Anaraxes]

Even if it does follow its original path back to you, why would that guarantee damage (that is, no defense to the hit is allowed)? The shooter might well have moved by that point. Characters in combat are always moving. Also, the original hit might not have succeeded versus the target's defense, either -- and one valid way to interpret that is that the GURPS "hit" wasn't an actual contact of the missile. Similarly, neither is the return hit.

Or to argue in magical terms, the spell basically just symbolically replaces the caster with any shooter for the purposes of a ranged attack, so the shooter is really shooting at himself. The magic makes things such that that's the net effect. The exact physical details aren't even important for the similarities and correspondences involved. The only hit that gets rolled is the one versus the shooter.

[Kromm]

Use the rules for the Reflection enhancement for Damage Resistance (p. B47); namely, "The attacker doesn't get an active defense against the first attack you reflect back at him, but gets his usual defenses against subsequent reflected attacks. Reflection only works vs. direct hits! It cannot reflect damage from explosions, fragments, poison gas, or anything else that affects an entire area." Reverse Missiles is specific protection against ranged attacks that trace a line from attacker to subject, and once it's no longer a surprise, the returned attack is no easier or harder to defend against than the original attack would have been.

In particular, note that "hit" in GURPS very often means "the attack roll succeeded." It doesn't say anything about defense rolls, DR, etc.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Use the rules for the Reflection enhancement for Damage Resistance (p. B47); namely, "The attacker doesn't get an active defense against the first attack you reflect back at him, but gets his usual defenses against subsequent reflected attacks. Reflection only works vs. direct hits! It cannot reflect damage from explosions, fragments, poison gas, or anything else that affects an entire area." Reverse Missiles is specific protection against ranged attacks that trace a line from attacker to subject, and once it's no longer a surprise, the returned attack is no easier or harder to defend against than the original attack would have been.

In particular, note that "hit" in GURPS very often means "the attack roll succeeded." It doesn't say anything about defense rolls, DR, etc.

I think the problem is, how do you shoot a gun and a bullet is returning back to where you are shooting from and still dodge it, despite the fact that dodging bullets means not being where the gun is pointing? You couldn't be where you were shooting from essentially.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In particular, note that "hit" in GURPS very often means "the attack roll succeeded." It doesn't say anything about defense rolls, DR, etc.

While not part of the initial question, my follow up and the subsequent discussion was wondering about the intended mechanics of the spell... because we do understand what "hit" often means in GURPS. Reverse Missile apparently affects "misses", based on the wording about an attack that misses still being "reversed" back at the firer, but not in a manner to hit whomever or whatever fired the shot.

This seems inconsistent with how I would expect things to work, unless there is some bizarre cosmic "fairness" law that states "They weren't trying to hit you, so we won't hit them!" If the spell just takes any incoming "missile" and "reverses" it, shouldn't it simply be a matter of something hitting the spell's area of effect versus not hitting it? An arrow that whizzes by your head (unless the effect of the spell extends out that far) shouldn't go flying back. If someone is firing from a moving position, the missile should fly back to where it originated, even if the firer is no longer present.

[Kromm]

You get a dodge vs. bullets in GURPS because you are moving in a way your enemy cannot predict. If he's behind you or otherwise has the jump, it's assumed that he can predict you; otherwise, you may dodge. In the case of Reverse Missiles, you get to dodge because you are aware of the foe – you're shooting at him, after all! Your movement is therefore assumed to be evasive with respect to him; it isn't as though you wouldn't get a Dodge roll if you both had pistols and he shot 1/100 of a second after you did. An attack returned with Reverse Missiles is essentially indistinguishable from that case. Perhaps most important, the bullet has a finite travel time to and then back from the person with Reverse Missiles, during which time you may well budge . . . and of course you and your target don't have the same exact shape or profile, so a hit on him may well barely graze you.

As for misses, the idea is that for the sake of drama, you treat all misses as near-misses: hair-parting grazes, last minute flinches, etc. They would've hit but for random bad luck. The effect extends at most to the target's hair, clothing, etc. so that this can happen. Wide misses with more air between them and the target don't occur ". . . because magic."