DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[JMason]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

please, excuse me if these points have already been stated...

If you read the rules for rapid strike carefully, they can only apply to one of your attacks. I used to make this mistake too thinking if I have extra attack I can apply rapid strike to both and get 4 attacks. in reality, you only get 3 attacks with extra attack and rapid strike.

Right, he is only turning one attack into a rapid strike. The other tends to be a Feint or deceptive attack depending on the situation.

What I WAS doing was allowing the rules from MA for Rapid Strike allow more than two strikes.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

What's his point total now?May be able to find ssomething to challenge him...

320 spent, but he has 30 set aside (he's considering upgrading Ex. Luck to Ridiculous Luck).

Originally Posted by Anders

My impression is that the trick isn't strictly speaking finding which can challenge the swashbuckler. It's to find something which can challenge the swashbuckler, gives the other characters a place to shine, and doesn't eat the entire party.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Edges

The problem seems to be that one character was allowed a force-multiplying optional rule that was meant for a different type of campaign. Now he is a much more efficient killing machine than the rest of the party.

But I don't propose taking away the optional rule. Players don't generally like their toys taken away especially for seemingly arbitrary, meta-game reasons. Instead, I suggest giving the other PCs comparable efficiencies either in the form of Advantages or access to optional rules (be they RAW or house ruled).

I wouldn't do this heavy handedly though. It might make the Swashbuckler feel funny if you just handed out a bunch of good stuff to everyone else. I would gradually work it into the campaign in the form of in-game rewards. Maybe after they defeat a powerful wizard, they get his spellbook and find the secrets to rapid fire spell casting (or whatever). Later another PC gets something groovy and powerful, etc.

Once everyone gets up to the SB's speed (so to speak), then you get to step up the challenge level and let 'er rip.

The cleric is actually coming long. He is a Celestial and the 75 points sunk into the racial template stunted him a bit starting out, but I think that now he is getting to a good place. He can use his morningstar, buff, heal, throw Sunbolt, and has some energy reserve to keep from being tired all the time.

I've talked with the Wizard player about some power ups, such as an irresistible attack (like a Missile of Magic!), but he just doesn't seem interested. I really feel that while he says that he like his character, but doesn't like playing a mage in combat.

I've asked him if he wanted to retire the character and start playing with a new one, but so far he has said no. I think that he feel obligated to "fill the role" for the party.

With the party down two players though, things might change.

[ErhnamDJ]

It seems as though your wizard isn't taking full advantage of the available spell options. Attempting to inflict physical harm on an enemy is by far the least powerful thing a wizard can do and is more easily accomplished, as you've noticed, by attacking the enemy with some sort of weapon.

What I've found to be necessary when building wizards is choosing a few powerful spells--which will have lots of prerequisites--and focusing my list on those.

The individual spell choices made by the wizard will greatly alter how he functions in play. Spells like Force Wall, Create Animal, the various Illusions, the Darkness/Dark Vision combo, Invisible Wizard Eye, Concussion, Body of Water, Ethereal Body, and See Secrets each give you a very different character with his own niche.

I've found it best to cast a spell like Stun or Mental Stun as my combat option. It's cheap both in terms of character points and in energy cost, and it allows you to focus your spell selection on something more impactful.

If your wizard was able to create a Force Wall each combat, and keep each character in a protective Body of Water, while also able to cast Mental Stun at-will, I think he would find himself in a much more powerful position to impact the game. He should be playing up his strengths. He can do things with his magic that even the most advanced technology can't do. Instead he's trying to mimic a man with a stick. I don't think giving him even more attack abilities is the right way to go.

Looking at his spells, his only two useful combat spells are Stench and Smoke. Has he been laying those down to shape the battlefield, or are most enemies immune?

[Pagan]

Why would you let a character with so many advantages now upgrade to Ridiculous Luck? You don't have to do that you know. Just because it is in the book doesn't mean the player is entitled to it. If you don't set limits on characters then generally players will take anything they can whether it unbalances the game or not. Is there some type of justification for him upgrading his luck? Did he get a wish from a genie? Was he blessed by a god? If not, then you probably don't want to add more unbalanced power to an already overpowered character.

[Refplace]

The Wizards spell list appears to be kind of scattered.
But he has a couple of Area options that can be used on swarms or hordes like rabid rats.
Use ranged energy attacks like lightning and sunbolt on the party. the Wizard can deflect them and the SB is reduced to dodging.
The Flame Jet idea above might be a good one too.
But mostly that player needs to figure out and be honest about what he wants out of the game and work with you for ideas to get more out of it.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by JMason

The cleric is actually coming long. He is a Celestial and the 75 points sunk into the racial template stunted him a bit starting out, but I think that now he is getting to a good place. He can use his morningstar, buff, heal, throw Sunbolt, and has some energy reserve to keep from being tired all the time.

Explain Bless to this guy; I notice it doesn't have a star, and it really should, because it's a much better option a lot of the time than his other buffs, and most-definitely a better use for his FP than throwing Sunbolts outside of a few specialized situations.

Originally Posted by JMason

I've talked with the Wizard player about some power ups, such as an irresistible attack (like a Missile of Magic!), but he just doesn't seem interested. I really feel that while he says that he like his character, but doesn't like playing a mage in combat.

+1 to ErnhamDJ on battlefield control. But, if he's just not happy playing a Wizard at all:

Originally Posted by JMason

I've asked him if he wanted to retire the character and start playing with a new one, but so far he has said no. I think that he feel obligated to "fill the role" for the party.

Simple solution: Just tell him, "This guy with a funny name on the internet told me he's running a game with no Wizards even allowed and it kicks ass. Also, I'm the GM and I shape the challenges to be tough but not unfairly hose the party, so if you retire the Wizard and make up a Thief or something you won't be the reason they fail at everything now, you'll be the reason they don't get toasted by the Dungeon of Crazy Traps that may or may not be upcoming."

Originally Posted by Pagan

Why would you let a character with so many advantages now upgrade to Ridiculous Luck? You don't have to do that you know. Just because it is in the book doesn't mean the player is entitled to it. If you don't set limits on characters then generally players will take anything they can whether it unbalances the game or not. Is there some type of justification for him upgrading his luck? Did he get a wish from a genie? Was he blessed by a god? If not, then you probably don't want to add more unbalanced power to an already overpowered character.

Meh, I'd allow it. Luck is a universal Swashbuckler class template thing at its base level, and most of the work-arounds we've suggested against his strengths already assume that one of his strengths is making all of his die-rolls. The SB in my game has Ridiculous Luck (right out of the gate, along with all the other Leprechauns in the world), and I can still mess with him easily.

[sir_pudding]

I allow the the multiple Rapid Strikes and I don't see it causing a lot of problems. Knights use it just as much as the Swashbuckler.

[ErhnamDJ]

I had intended to look at the cleric's spells and give my thoughts on those. Bless is by far their most powerful spell. It's probably in the top five in the book. It warps the game in ways nothing else does. I've seen players, and been one of the players to do this, go extremely far out of their way to keep two- and three-point Bless spells active all the time. That spell alone is worth hundreds of character points. It's just about the biggest force multiplier you can get. The power of the Bless spell can't possibly be overstated. It's like giving the bomb to Alexander the Great.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

That spell alone is worth hundreds of character points.

Something of an exaggeration; I'd rate a 1 point bless at around 70 points (+1 to all rolls, with a Magic source, plus a one-use Serendipity that ends your bonuses), and 2-3 point blesses have significant cost to cast. It's still a grossly overpowered spell, but probably less than 200 points of of overpowered.

[scc]

Originally Posted by JMason

Right, he is only turning one attack into a rapid strike. The other tends to be a Feint or deceptive attack depending on the situation.

What I WAS doing was allowing the rules from MA for Rapid Strike allow more than two strikes.

And I think that taken altogether that means he can only attack twice a turn