Passive Defense and 4e

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by muduri

Well OK, as long as I'm not the only one doing the re-animating, ha. I guess it wasn't really knight vs. peasant so much as two other scenarios: armored swordsman vs. leather-clad axeman, and knight vs. brittle rock troll.

Basically it comes down to an irrational nostalgia for PD so I won't work hard to justify it - I'm sure people have come up with other solutions for this. But I wanted a sort of bronze-age heroism, where metal items were rare but gave a significant edge - hence bringing back PD and (get ready) a Ready turn for axes and two Ready turns for polearms. And then costs for swords and metal armor were like +50%.

And rock trolls! I guess the 4 and 17 on the critical hit table, plus the Chinks in Armor rule, sort of take care of this, but if the players aren't totally up on hit location you have to admit there's a certain appeal to a creature with say PD10 (I know, I know), DR1, HP15, ha.

Sorry I never played 3e so I'm still a bit lost on this?

If you want metal to be rare, just make it rare. (or rather make it only available for certain things. Axes are quite good for this because an axe head is relatively simple shape that done't require long thin bits of metal, although I think that was more an issue for early bronze and copper).

But yes I agree with gilbertocarlos if you make them slow no one will use them, from what I understand of PD you'll want to make as many attacks as you can (I think, my 3e stuff is in the attic at the moment)? If you have little armour lots of ordinary attacks will be better than a few heavy attacks as well?

Sorry I reckon I'm probably still missing something here!

I don't really have an issue with getting axes to be used, they are cheap and given defensive attacks, 2h use and/or shields they are pretty flexible weapons, more esoterically they are easier for your hoi palloi to carry around without having questions asked (especially at TL2 before long swords and bastard swords turn up)

[Jerander]

Another discussion on Passive Defense: thread.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

But yes I agree with gilbertocarlos if you make them slow no one will use them, from what I understand of PD you'll want to make as many attacks as you can (I think, my 3e stuff is in the attic at the moment)?

From what I recall of 3e in play (didn't do a lot of playing until 4e came out, and my books turned to mush due to a leak), requiring a ready for axes was pretty meaningless. Anyone who didn't have the ST to ignore the ready didn't use an axe. And no one used polearms. An option that has all drawbacks and no benefits isn't an option. At most, it's a penalty you're sometimes stuck with because you have no choice.

And something that takes away from gameplay and reduces realism isn't going to be high on my list of house rules.

[kirbwarrior]

I'm not sure on the rules in Low-Tech (don't have books atm), but I know that stone axes barely get worse than metal ones, while stone swords are hilariously bad. If metal is scarce, then axes and polearms already look better.

As for PD, I'd accept +300%* on Enhanced Defences to make it so they always work, even if the underlying defence can't. Heck, I think there is an option to auto-dodge with Cosmic in PU4.

*This is overpriced. I'm pretty sure there's a way to get 'No Roll Required' onto your Enhanced Defences, but I don't know how.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I'm not sure on the rules in Low-Tech (don't have books atm), but I know that stone axes barely get worse than metal ones, while stone swords are hilariously bad. If metal is scarce, then axes and polearms already look better.

As for PD, I'd accept +300%* on Enhanced Defences to make it so they always work, even if the underlying defence can't. Heck, I think there is an option to auto-dodge with Cosmic in PU4.

*This is overpriced. I'm pretty sure there's a way to get 'No Roll Required' onto your Enhanced Defences, but I don't know how.

That's definitely a 300%, as it's blatantly cheating to just declare "I dodged that!"

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

As for PD, I'd accept +300%* on Enhanced Defences to make it so they always work, even if the underlying defence can't. Heck, I think there is an option to auto-dodge with Cosmic in PU4.

*This is overpriced. I'm pretty sure there's a way to get 'No Roll Required' onto your Enhanced Defences, but I don't know how.

Page 7 of Power-Ups 4: Enhancements has a box dealing with what Cosmic on an Active Defense means, how to price it, and what it can and cannot do. Specifically, it states that you can indeed get around issues like Sneak Attacks and the like, but you cannot avoid the need for a dice roll. You could give it a shot if you really wanted to, but keep in mind such a character can only be hit if his defense is dropped below 3 or if the attack is completely unavoidable (unless you've also got a massive Step, Dodge isn't going to help against a tactical nuke detonated in your face).

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Page 7 of Power-Ups 4: Enhancements has a box dealing with what Cosmic on an Active Defense means, how to price it, and what it can and cannot do. Specifically, it states that you can indeed get around issues like Sneak Attacks and the like, but you cannot avoid the need for a dice roll. You could give it a shot if you really wanted to, but keep in mind such a character can only be hit if his defense is dropped below 3 or if the attack is completely unavoidable (unless you've also got a massive Step, Dodge isn't going to help against a tactical nuke detonated in your face).

Ah, but Warp with Reliable 10 and No Die Roll Required can! Which will probably end up on somebody going that crazy on saying "Nope, can't hit me!"

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Ah, but Warp with Reliable 10 and No Die Roll Required can! Which will probably end up on somebody going that crazy on saying "Nope, can't hit me!"

I'd call that an exploit - the intent of the box implies that Active Defenses shouldn't be allowed to get No Die Roll Required, regardless of if it's one of the three defaults or something gained by another Advantage (as the Warp Dodge, or any of the various Power Parry type abilities).

Unless you were responding to the tactical nuke situation, but I'd say Reliable 10 Warp with No Dice Roll Required isn't that dissimilar to having a massive step. Of course, if you do indeed have a character like that (and are allowing No Dice Roll Required on Active Defenses), you're down to having to drop their defense below 3 - meaning the character has to be massively outclassed to be harmed.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Ah, but Warp with Reliable 10 and No Die Roll Required can! Which will probably end up on somebody going that crazy on saying "Nope, can't hit me!"

Don't forget Danger Sense with NRR to make you always aware of attacks. And maybe upgrade it to Precognition to see if it's the best attack to dodge this turn.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd call that an exploit - the intent of the box implies that Active Defenses shouldn't be allowed to get No Die Roll Required, regardless of if it's one of the three defaults or something gained by another Advantage (as the Warp Dodge, or any of the various Power Parry type abilities).

Unless you were responding to the tactical nuke situation, but I'd say Reliable 10 Warp with No Dice Roll Required isn't that dissimilar to having a massive step. Of course, if you do indeed have a character like that (and are allowing No Dice Roll Required on Active Defenses), you're down to having to drop their defense below 3 - meaning the character has to be massively outclassed to be harmed.

Warp can only be used once per turn. It's upgrading Dodge to always work that's absurd. Considering you would need at least three levels for this to work, that's [180] to always dodge any attack, which is too good. But I was thinking that if you have to get 16 levels (as per No Nuisance Rolls) and then put NRR on top of that, that becomes 'Enhanced Dodge 16 (NRR +100%) [480]', which seems fine since you could do similar things for around 500pts.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Ah, but Warp with Reliable 10 and No Die Roll Required can! Which will probably end up on somebody going that crazy on saying "Nope, can't hit me!"

No, it will just get clobbered by a critical hit or surprise attack, assuming the GM allows it in the first place.