DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[Pahn]

Limit his ability to retreat by drawing him into heroic charges/move and attack. Attack him with flails and have enemies be equally skilled, so they can use 5 levels of deceptive attack. This forces him to use a dodge at significant penalty. That 14 turns into something much more hittable.

Use range to your advantage. As he's sprinting towards the threat, he doesn't get to retreat. Grapple him. Target his weak stats with spells. Use explosion damage, poison, area effect, etc. Use extreme heat or cold.

I don't get why he gets 5 attacks, though I'm not familiar with DF. Basic RAW for Extra Attack says you only get to rapid strike one of your attacks (B54). It also says you're attacking with each hand, so unless he's dual wielding sabers, he's going to be doing less damage with the other attack. If he uses AoA (Double) and Rapid Strike, he gets 4 attacks by my count...and no active defenses.

[Anthony]

The fact that the swashbuckler has been allowed to increase weapon skill to 24 is probably a big part of the issue; point for point weapon skill is the most potent combat ability in the game, to the extent that PCs should be restricted in how many points they're allowed to put in it (this also comes up as a problem for the Knight). A starting swashbuckler with ridiculous luck and extra attack 1 can have a maximum skill of 19 (by also taking +1 DX).

[sir_pudding]

Unless his Will and IQ are much higher than the template, what about enemies with spells like Charm?

[Joseph Paul]

I am thinking if he is an Army of One let him encounter a well oiled platoon of lesser mortals that can bring a challenge.

A group that is in a position to use longer reach weapons to keep him from closing.

Net users. They don't have to be thrown over him. Tossed across the floor they would define areas that are dangerous for him to traverse and limit his movement. They could topple him or even bind him if the net guys are using Wait well.

Multiple-armed opponents (Land dwelling octopi? Insectoid races?) that can match his attacks and parries.

Make his opponents smart enough to attack him on terrain that is not conducive to him Dodging so freely. Perhaps they all throw flasks of oil (flammable or not) or caltrops to their front. Or behind him.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Net users. They don't have to be thrown over him. Tossed across the floor they would define areas that are dangerous for him to traverse and limit his movement. They could topple him or even bind him if the net guys are using Wait well.

Multiple-armed opponents (Land dwelling octopi? Insectoid races?) that can match his attacks and parries.

Make his opponents smart enough to attack him on terrain that is not conducive to him Dodging so freely. Perhaps they all throw flasks of oil (flammable or not) or caltrops to their front. Or behind him.

If he's a one-skill wonder, grappling stuff that pulls ST into play can be pretty vicious.

[Joseph Paul]

Douglas - and I was just thinking "Doesn't DF have anything that can glue his foot to the ground?"

[Gigermann]

One of the PCs in our Banestorm game is a super-swashy (Assassin's Creed ripoff), and he was nearly done in by a friggin' bush—already at ½Move for the swampy terrain, and ended up moving through some undergrowth that left him at ¼Move, penalties to combat, which, along with some really bad die-rolls, left him nearly dead for the first time since his creation. Location, location, location…

[JMason]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Here are a few follow ups:

More DR on enemies: The Knight also has ST 13 (both Cat-folk), so if the SB can't get through, then the others are in the same boat.

More Enemies: Done that, but what ends up happening, is that the others get a bit banged up, but the SB is still breezing without a challenge.

Point Totals: Everyone started at 250, the SB is now over 320, as is the wizard and cleric. The Knight is a new comer and at 270.

Number of Attacks:
If I wasn't clear, he is duel wielding sabers. One is tied to the Weapon Bond, the other is not. He has an extra attack, and regularly uses rapid strike with the rules form MA allowing more than 2 attacks. Yes I got some of my numbers a bit off but he is still attacking 5 times (1 attack = 4 rapid strikes, +Extra attack).

Again, thanks for the advice. This has given me a lot to look at. I've also not been ruling on limiting defenses on move and attacks (I've just never used the rules, as there was very little of this in prior games).

[mlangsdorf]

Gigerman brings up a solid point, which is that terrain can have a great effect, too. Fighting on a floor permanently enchanted with Grease or Glue is always entertaining, especially against floating enemies who ignore the terrain effect. Fighting on a floor that is on fire or has some other constant damage effect is another good idea.


I'm not sure why the Knight isn't stronger than the swashbuckler - by the templates alone, it should be SB: ST10 + Striking ST2 and the knight at ST13 + Striking ST2. It probably doesn't make that big a difference, really, and maybe the swashbuckler bought up his strength. Still, he should usually have less armor because encumbrance penalizes fencing attack rolls.

Also, you do realize that the multiple rapid strike rules in MA are completely optional? I never allowed them in my DF games, and I've never regretted the decision. Those rules just make insanely high skill and Weapon Master even more mandatory, increasing the divide between the second class melee types (Barbarians, Clerics, Holy Warriors, etc) and the primary melee types (knights, swashbucklers). Limit him to one rapid strike or dual weapon attack, and his damage potential drops by 40%.

Dual weapon swashbucklers that Move and Attack are generally dead swashbucklers, in my experience - no retreat and they can't parry with the two weapons they used to attack. It's really an important rule.

[Kazander]

Anyone with a weapon big enough to break the Rapiers.

A wizard with Reflexed Disintegrate spells (for those rapiers), Explosive fireballs, Charm, Hinder, Rooted Feet, Roundabout, Strike Blind, Loyalty, etc.

A Mystic Knight with Annihilating Weapon.

Target his weak points, not his strengths. He can't be strong against everything. (note that I'm not saying you should kill him here....)

I would suggest part of the problem is the point disparity, and perhaps point focus. It's very hard to challenge someone in combat that spends all their points in 1 weapon skill. This has always been the case in GURPS. Vary your challenges so there are diminishing returns on doing so. Make them regret selling the magic weapons by facing enemies that have enhanced defenses (Injury Tolerance, or some such) against normal weapons.

A 50 point spread is substantial amongst a group with ~300 pts. My DF group is >550 pts now, with only a 30 point spread. I found letting it grow more than that marginalized any new characters. Their highest effective weapon skill is only 22 at this point level. I vary the enemies, to encourage breadth and depth of character, and strongly discourage one skill wonders.