DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by JMason

He has Ambidexterity, Combat Reflexes, Extra Attack, Weapon Master, Extraordinary Luck, Weapon Bond, and 24 skill in Saber (+1 for WB on first attack).

A normal turn might be a deceptive attack at 16 (for the max -5 to defense), followed by 4 rapid strikes at 15 skill each. This is an average of 50 damage (2d6+4 x5) for the turn. This works against groups and solo targets alike.

A few things don't seem quite right here.

Firstly, Weapon Bond affects more than just your first attack. It raises your effective skill with that weapon, which means skill 25 at all times with his Weapon Bonded weapon.

Secondly, he can't be rolling against 16 and apply -5 to defense. A deceptive attack for -5 requires a -10 penalty, but his skill is only 25. So either he should be rolling against 15 to get the -5, or he should be rolling against 16 and only have a -4.

[Novembermike]

I'm kind of curious about the point totals for each character. Has he gotten a lot more points somehow? Otherwise, have the other characters not put their points into combat stats?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

A few things don't seem quite right here.

Firstly, Weapon Bond affects more than just your first attack. It raises your effective skill with that weapon, which means skill 25 at all times with his Weapon Bonded weapon.

Secondly, he can't be rolling against 16 and apply -5 to defense. A deceptive attack for -5 requires a -10 penalty, but his skill is only 25. So either he should be rolling against 15 to get the -5, or he should be rolling against 16 and only have a -4.

And then where is he getting the four rapid strikes? Extra attack will give him one free attack, but he has to pay for the rest.

Or is he using the extra attack to make a deceptive attack (-5 to defense) followed by 4 rapid strikes (I get -9, one for free, and 3 rapid strikes each at -2 because he's a weapon master)

So 1 extra attack -5 to defense (15), and then one attack that's split into 4 rapid strikes for a total of -9 (16).

This means his opponent defends at -5, then at -0, -0, -0, -0. Frankly, in CBR, I saw stuff like this all the time. But I had a staff weilder walking around with a defense of 18. -5 would just drop him to 13, and the four rapid strikes wouldn't do a thing to him. Or heavily armored, healthy guys with a decent DR: 2d6+4 vs 4 DR = ~ 7-10 damage (cutting, right?). If he has 20+ HP, that's not even a stun, and if he has, say, 15 HP, that's a stun check, but he's at HT+4 to resist, so with a solid HT, he'll be fine. Subsequently, he'll parry all attacks no problem, and counter-attack with ease. Or just have a heavily armored character: a DR of 10 will take an average of 1 damage per hit from that attack, so that's... 5 damage. That's nothing, especially to a stone golem. I wouldn't even bother to defend, and just make an AoA-skilled with lots of deceptive attack on it to floor the Swashbuckler.

High skill/low damage can be dangerous, but it's not the end-all-be-all. High skill, high damage starts to approach it, but you need some way to survive the counter attack. The high DR monster is probably a good begining, especially if it's elemental in nature, as the mages will be needed to do some clever solution to make him vulnerable.

What's wrong with the knight? Why is he less lethal? My experience is those guys hit like a frickin' truck.

EDIT: I also suspect your problem is a creation of the players. Having realized that the swashbuckler is the pointy end of the party, the casters just focus on buffing him while the knight tanks stuff so the swashbuckler can focus unmolested on whatever he wants to be murdering at that moment. The reason your party falls apart whenever you disrupt the swashbuckler is because it is literally disrupting the whole party, because the party IS the swashbuckler. They orbit around him. Or so it sounds to me.

[Vynticator]

Defeat melee monsters like this with magic or psi. Also consider ranged attacks and/or fliers. I guess he has had to compromise on Will and IQ somewhat to pump his melee awesomeness. You might make use of Last Gasp with waves and waves of enemies so he takes the lead initially then gets completely fatigued and 'second rank' characters have to step in.

If it weren't Daftness Falls, I'd suggest running some heavily investigative and social adventures so characters who are a bit more rounded will flourish and he will be left standing mute, ready to slay enemies who never appear. But you chose the munchkin-friendly loot collection exercise, so hey, you narrowed your own options there.

[cbower]

An Ogre with high DR and a two handed flail?

[Pahn]

Limit his ability to retreat by drawing him into heroic charges/move and attack. Attack him with flails and have enemies be equally skilled, so they can use 5 levels of deceptive attack. This forces him to use a dodge at significant penalty. That 14 turns into something much more hittable.

Use range to your advantage. As he's sprinting towards the threat, he doesn't get to retreat. Grapple him. Target his weak stats with spells. Use explosion damage, poison, area effect, etc. Use extreme heat or cold.

I don't get why he gets 5 attacks, though I'm not familiar with DF. Basic RAW for Extra Attack says you only get to rapid strike one of your attacks (B54). It also says you're attacking with each hand, so unless he's dual wielding sabers, he's going to be doing less damage with the other attack. If he uses AoA (Double) and Rapid Strike, he gets 4 attacks by my count...and no active defenses.