Transmogrification (RPM)

[Danukian]

Okay, I thought you'd need to add Altered Traits (IQ+X),and agreed to that in the other thread, but to be clear: Turning a man into a dog (or a sheep into a fox!) Adding Greater Transform Mind to Transmogrify would work?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Danukian

Okay, I thought you'd need to add Altered Traits (IQ+X),and agreed to that in the other thread, but to be clear: Turning a man into a dog (or a sheep into a fox!) Adding Greater Transform Mind to Transmogrify would work?

Yes. Magical "uplifts" would require a Greater Create Mind effect with Altered Traits of IQ+X. Making a man a dog or a sheep into a fox in body and mind would be Greater Transform Body + Lesser Transform Mind.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Right, or Verdant Growth or Wallwalker. But in the section on costs, it notes that adding disadvantages is 1 energy per -5 points of point value. So I would expect that turning someone into an animal that has a -71 point template, would add 15 energy, as Altered Traits:Weasel Template or whatever.

Nope. The point of a Transform turning a person into, let's say, an animal is that it turns them into a baseline version of that animal. They get whatever the stats for that animal are. You'd only need to use Altered Traits if you wanted to add additional advantages, disadvantages, or attribute modifiers to that template (e.g., a "winged cheetah" would need another 30 points worth of Altered Traits, unless winged cheetahs were something that already existed in your game).

In that case, why are there rules for Altered Traits adding disadvantages at all?

For spells that cause blindness, hemophilia, etc.

turning someone into a frog is a classic curse, and a powerful one. It seems odd to me that it costs the same amount of energy as turning someone into say, a dog, which sucks but allows considerably to be accomplished while you are one.

Presumably, the "frog" spell is a straightforward curse, while the "dog" spell is the kind of thing you might cast on yourself or an ally in some situations, a foe in other situations. But they're still doing the same basic thing -- "turning the subject into this specific animal" -- so they have the same energy cost and difficulty.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Right, you're going to pay extra energy to turn someone into a negative point template, I see where you are going. Honestly, it's the same reason you don't get back points for having a negative point template with the Alternate Form advantage, that is it's worth less than the baseline (human) template at 0 points. It's glossed over because it would be more hassle than it's worth. If you want to say "I want all things to cost points" in your RPM game, cool! Awesome! Spectacular! That's a way to do it. You're the GM and your word is final, but for RAW, we have a example and that's usually what it is. :-)

Put another way, you would be charging the caster more effort/energy that you would if you did it by RAW. Turning someone into a frog via powers is just Affliction + Alternate Form. Which is what Transmogrification simulates. FWIW that is one of the spells I submitted and it was changed from submission to final draft by PK himself.

OK, I understand that; it's based on Alternate Form, but there's no 15 point cost because turning back isn't under the victim's control. A spell that allowed someone to turn back and forth from frog to human for the duration would have an additional 45 point cost (15*3 for there being a Greater Effect).

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Luke is fantastic, he really is. But I have to strip out a lot of stuff when I use Animalia because he goes (in my opinion) to deep into trying to simulate the animals. There is nothing wrong with this! But when creating things for a game you got to brush over some aspects for it or you're going to go crazy. In my experience at least.

Sure, but the exact value of the template was irrelevant; if I'd had a point cost for a frog template handy I'd have used that. Since there's a bit in Harry Potter where an annoying student gets turned into a weasel as punishment, I used that one.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Now, turning a man into a dog fully, where he thinks he's a dog probably wouldn't cost anything extra if you use the full stock template. Except a Greater effect of course.

You'd need to add a Transform Mind effect too, right?

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yes. Magical "uplifts" would require a Greater Create Mind effect with Altered Traits of IQ+X.

Why is it Create rather than Transform of Strengthen? There's already a mind there, you're just upgrading it.


To take it back to the effect that started the discussion, from the evolve spell thread, I read from this:

Originally Posted by PK

Nope. The point of a Transform turning a person into, let's say, an animal is that it turns them into a baseline version of that animal. They get whatever the stats for that animal are. You'd only need to use Altered Traits if you wanted to add additional advantages, disadvantages, or attribute modifiers to that template (e.g., a "winged cheetah" would need another 30 points worth of Altered Traits, unless winged cheetahs were something that already existed in your game).

that to take a random animal and make them into a sapient humanoid animal you'd need:

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Greater Transform Body (8) + Greater Transform Mind (8) + Altered Traits: IQ+5 (100), Can Speak (15), Not Hidebound (5), Not Bestial (10), No Extra Legs (1), Not Horizontal (10), Fine Manipulators (30), Duration, 20 years (41) + Range, 20 yards (6) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). Greater Effects: 2 (x5) = 1180(236x5)
You could make it cheaper by, e.g. only upgrading to Ham-Fisted from No Fine Manipulators, not buying off Bestial, etc., but that will affect what you get out the other end.

Although the Altered Traits might be simplified to No Animal Metatrait (30), No Quadruped Metatrait(35) for a total cost of 1155(231*5)?

[Kalzazz]

What if you dont want a baseline dog, you want say a DF (is it 5?) Hound?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

What if you dont want a baseline dog, you want say a DF (is it 5?) Hound?

AFAICT that's still basic Transmogrification as long as big hounds like that are a thing in your world. If they aren't, I think you'd add energy equal to the difference in point value between one of them and the biggest, meanest dog that is a thing in that world.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

OK, I understand that; it's based on Alternate Form, but there's no 15 point cost because turning back isn't under the victim's control. A spell that allowed someone to turn back and forth from frog to human for the duration would have an additional 45 point cost (15*3 for there being a Greater Effect).

Yes. You'd give "Altered Traits, Alternate Form (Frog)," but there is usually no reason to do that unless the caster isn't going to be around. A great fictional example of this sort of spellcasting is from Kim Harrison's Hollows series. In it, the protagonist makes a potion to turn herself her pixie companion into a "human-sized" pixie. Said pixie essentially becomes a human for the duration and has no control over his size for it. It lasts as long as the protagonist wants it too or it's duration (a week I think).

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Sure, but the exact value of the template was irrelevant; if I'd had a point cost for a frog template handy I'd have used that. Since there's a bit in Harry Potter where an annoying student gets turned into a weasel as punishment, I used that one.

You could've...but again, that's dull point accounting with no real returns. I'm all for checking the numbers...if there is a) a good reason and b) something will be gained in the end. This is, in my opinion and experience, not one of those times. YMMV of course.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

You'd need to add a Transform Mind effect too, right?

Why is it Create rather than Transform of Strengthen? There's already a mind there, you're just upgrading it.

I've always read it as being the needed effect to upgrade a mind from sentience to sapience. Strengthen is more about reinforcement of the mind, though I suppose you could argue for a increase in IQ up to 6 for sentient minds. That said, I'm sure you could use Create, Transform, or Strengthen - I'd just use Create as a GM.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

To take it back to the effect that started the discussion, from the evolve spell thread, I read from this:

that to take a random animal and make them into a sapient humanoid animal you'd need:

Although the Altered Traits might be simplified to No Animal Metatrait (30), No Quadruped Metatrait(35) for a total cost of 1155(231*5)?

Again, bean-counting for a standard "magical spell" - you're free to do it that way...but my players would revolt and I probably would as well.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

What if you dont want a baseline dog, you want say a DF (is it 5?) Hound?

Originally Posted by Dalillama

AFAICT that's still basic Transmogrification as long as big hounds like that are a thing in your world. If they aren't, I think you'd add energy equal to the difference in point value between one of them and the biggest, meanest dog that is a thing in that world.

This, Kalzazz.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Again, bean-counting for a standard "magical spell" - you're free to do it that way...but my players would revolt and I probably would as well.

So how would you do a spell like that?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

So how would you do a spell like that?

Well, if you're turning someone into a baseline template of whatever animal...as Transmogrification. If you're turning them into something with Human-like IQ (like Fin Raziel from Willow) I'd use a Greater Transform Mind effect. If you can make a man think he is a hawk, then you can allow the mind of a human being to remain as it is even if the body shifts. Actually uplifting is a straight on application of Altered Traits to remove whatever undesirable traits you want. So if you want to give a Dog a human like intellect add IQ till he gets to 10 and go from there. I hope that helps.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Actually uplifting is a straight on application of Altered Traits to remove whatever undesirable traits you want..

I'm not sure I see how this is different from the spell I posted above, which uses altered traits to get rid of things like Quadruped and Wild Animal mentality, plus a boost in IQ, to uplift a randomly chosen animal into a humanoid TMNT-style creature, and you described as too complicated...