Transmogrification (RPM)

[Dalillama]

Why doesn't the Transmogrification spell in RPM include any Altered Traits for the changes needed to turn a person into something else?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Why doesn't the Transmogrification spell in RPM include any Altered Traits for the changes needed to turn a person into something else?

Because most animal templates are 0 or less. For spells that add traits above your racial template then you need to add Altered Traits. See Sylph Form (same page) for a RAW example of that.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Danukian

I could be way off-base on this: it's been known to happen from time to time, but that is how *I* understand RPM ~ it just makes sense that way:

Transform Body: What does it transform? The Body! Okay, Base cost of 8.

Strengthen Body: What does it Strengthen? Various traits! Okay, Base cost of 3, plus the cost of whatever you are trying to strengthen.

That's how I always read it, anyways.

Hmmm... I ported this over from the Evolve thread, I'll have to look into a lot of my other spells now. Unless it was adding something majorly super human (which would use Energy or Matter), I assumed as per above.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Put another way, transforming a stone statue into a living breathing version of itself requires a Greater Transform Matter + Greater Transform Body + Greater Create Mind (and that's RAW), but requires no Altered Traits. You almost never use Altered Traits unless it's adding a ability that's under the control of the subject, not the caster. In this case, the subject cannot change shapes back and forth, therefore you don't need Altered Traits.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Put another way, transforming a stone statue into a living breathing version of itself requires a Greater Transform Matter + Greater Transform Body + Greater Create Mind (and that's RAW), but requires no Altered Traits. You almost never use Altered Traits unless it's adding a ability that's under the control of the subject, not the caster. In this case, the subject cannot change shapes back and forth, therefore you don't need Altered Traits.

Right, that's how I understood it. But using the very awesomeAnimalia as a resource, would a Cheetahneed to pay extra as it is 37pts over? What about something with even more change involved,like a Sandtiger Shark?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Danukian

Right, that's how I understood it. But using the very awesomeAnimalia as a resource, would a Cheetahneed to pay extra as it is 37pts over? What about something with even more change involved,like a Sandtiger Shark?

That's going to be up to the GM, but really, I wouldn't bother with it in most instances. If you're going to do that kind of point accounting don't forget to add Social Stigma, lack of Wealth, etc. that normally comes with being a animal. Let's face it, being stuck as a animal is going to suck for most people. You're going to end up in a zoo which is effectively prison or killed if you are turned into a really dangerous animal.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

That's going to be up to the GM, but really, I wouldn't bother with it in most instances. If you're going to do that kind of point accounting don't forget to add Social Stigma, lack of Wealth, etc. that normally comes with being a animal. Let's face it, being stuck as a animal is going to suck for most people. You're going to end up in a zoo which is effectively prison or killed if you are turned into a really dangerous animal.

That brings me to my next question: in uplifting an animal with Greater Transform Mind, would the same apply? Not changing the body at all, just giving my Dog human-like intelligence while keeping his paws and such - even keeping his lack of speech - would I need to buy off all of the negative mental animal traits AND raise his IQ, or would (as I understood it) Greater Transform Mind do it?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Because most animal templates are 0 or less. For spells that add traits above your racial template then you need to add Altered Traits. See Sylph Form (same page) for a RAW example of that.

Right, or Verdant Growth or Wallwalker. But in the section on costs, it notes that adding disadvantages is 1 energy per -5 points of point value. So I would expect that turning someone into an animal that has a -71 point template, would add 15 energy, as Altered Traits:Weasel Template or whatever.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Put another way, transforming a stone statue into a living breathing version of itself requires a Greater Transform Matter + Greater Transform Body + Greater Create Mind (and that's RAW), but requires no Altered Traits. You almost never use Altered Traits unless it's adding a ability that's under the control of the subject, not the caster. In this case, the subject cannot change shapes back and forth, therefore you don't need Altered Traits.

In that case, why are there rules for Altered Traits adding disadvantages at all?

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

That's going to be up to the GM, but really, I wouldn't bother with it in most instances. If you're going to do that kind of point accounting don't forget to add Social Stigma, lack of Wealth, etc. that normally comes with being a animal. Let's face it, being stuck as a animal is going to suck for most people. You're going to end up in a zoo which is effectively prison or killed if you are turned into a really dangerous animal.

The templates in Animalia have most of those included via the Wild Animal and Domestic Animal metatraits. And yes, it sucks a lot to be turned into most kinds of animals; that's why turning someone into a frog is a classic curse, and a powerful one. It seems odd to me that it costs the same amount of energy as turning someone into say, a dog, which sucks but allows considerably to be accomplished while you are one.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Danukian

That brings me to my next question: in uplifting an animal with Greater Transform Mind, would the same apply? Not changing the body at all, just giving my Dog human-like intelligence while keeping his paws and such - even keeping his lack of speech - would I need to buy off all of the negative mental animal traits AND raise his IQ, or would (as I understood it) Greater Transform Mind do it?

And the reverse, please: Would adding Greater Transform Mind to Transmogrify turn a man into a Dog with without pricing all of the effects separately?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Right, or Verdant Growth or Wallwalker. But in the section on costs, it notes that adding disadvantages is 1 energy per -5 points of point value. So I would expect that turning someone into an animal that has a -71 point template, would add 15 energy, as Altered Traits:Weasel Template or whatever.

Right, you're going to pay extra energy to turn someone into a negative point template, I see where you are going. Honestly, it's the same reason you don't get back points for having a negative point template with the Alternate Form advantage, that is it's worth less than the baseline (human) template at 0 points. It's glossed over because it would be more hassle than it's worth. If you want to say "I want all things to cost points" in your RPM game, cool! Awesome! Spectacular! That's a way to do it. You're the GM and your word is final, but for RAW, we have a example and that's usually what it is. :-)

Put another way, you would be charging the caster more effort/energy that you would if you did it by RAW. Turning someone into a frog via powers is just Affliction + Alternate Form. Which is what Transmogrification simulates. FWIW that is one of the spells I submitted and it was changed from submission to final draft by PK himself.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

In that case, why are there rules for Altered Traits adding disadvantages at all?

So you can curse someone with the loss of a limb, or terrible luck, and so on.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

The templates in Animalia have most of those included via the Wild Animal and Domestic Animal metatraits. And yes, it sucks a lot to be turned into most kinds of animals; that's why turning someone into a frog is a classic curse, and a powerful one. It seems odd to me that it costs the same amount of energy as turning someone into say, a dog, which sucks but allows considerably to be accomplished while you are one.

Luke is fantastic, he really is. But I have to strip out a lot of stuff when I use Animalia because he goes (in my opinion) to deep into trying to simulate the animals. There is nothing wrong with this! But when creating things for a game you got to brush over some aspects for it or you're going to go crazy. In my experience at least.

Originally Posted by Danukian

That brings me to my next question: in uplifting an animal with Greater Transform Mind, would the same apply? Not changing the body at all, just giving my Dog human-like intelligence while keeping his paws and such - even keeping his lack of speech - would I need to buy off all of the negative mental animal traits AND raise his IQ, or would (as I understood it) Greater Transform Mind do it?

Originally Posted by Danukian

And the reverse, please: Would adding Greater Transform Mind to Transmogrify turn a man into a Dog with without pricing all of the effects separately?

No, you'd actually need to add Altered Traits, Increased IQ for that. Now, turning a man into a dog fully, where he thinks he's a dog probably wouldn't cost anything extra if you use the full stock template. Except a Greater effect of course. You could rule otherwise if you wish. Again, this all goes back to how you do it with Powers (see above).