SFOD-D ("Delta Force") template (critique?)

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Either Delta or SEALs. SF selection is pretty damn hardcore, but SEALs are worse and so is Delta.

Not sure sure I believe that about BUD/S. It's gotten a lot of media attention, so we tend to know what BUD/S training looks like PHYSICALLY, but based on conversations I've had with members of the Special Operations community and the research I've done, AF PJ school is even harder than BUD/S PHYSICALLY.

When I said that Delta has one of the "toughest" selection processes in the US Military, I was speaking holistically about the difficulty of completing it. It's a good bet that it is very physically demanding, but the mental requirements, problem solving skills, and ability to think on your feet are all things that a candidate needs to have in spades to pass Delta selection.

Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of the specifics about Delta Selection, and what is out there is probably horribly out of date. Honestly, I would expect a lot of the pass/fail determination by the cadre is subjective, which would make actual comparison in Selection processes almost meaningless.

One thing I've seen bandied about too is that the washout rate for BUD/S is higher than that for Delta. We need to keep in mind what sort of candidates are going through these selection processes before we use that number to determine which is more difficult.

Just about anyone enlisting in the Navy can get into BUD/S. Most of the candidates are just out of A-school or Officer School, with little to no military experience. Your washout rate is going to be higher since your being selective about who gets to try out.

For Delta, OTOH, they are starting with experienced soldiers. From Wikipedia:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Since the 1990s, the Army has posted recruitment notices for the 1st SFOD-D. The Army, however, has never released an official fact sheet for the elite force. The recruitment notices in Fort Bragg's newspaper, Paraglide, refer to Delta Force by name, and label it "...the U.S. Army's special operations unit organized for the conduct of missions requiring rapid response with surgical application of a wide variety of unique special operations skills..." The notice states that applicants must be male, in the ranks of E-4 through E-8, have at least two and a half years of service remaining in their enlistment, be 21 years or older, and score high enough on the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery test to attend a briefing to be considered for admission.

On top of that, most of the guys who try out for Delta are already experienced Special Operators. So Delta selection is washing out experienced SF and Rangers. BUD/S is washing out 18 and 19 year old Navy recruits.

Make of that what you will.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

One thing I've seen bandied about too is that the washout rate for BUD/S is higher than that for Delta.

Good point about who's in it. This thread has me reading Inside Delta Force (Haney's book) for the first time. The pass rate (which he says was the highest ever) for his group was about 7%. 163 started, 18 finished, and of those 18, 6 were ditched by the Commander's Board as unsuitable.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Not sure sure I believe that about BUD/S. It's gotten a lot of media attention, so we tend to know what BUD/S training looks like PHYSICALLY, but based on conversations I've had with members of the Special Operations community and the research I've done, AF PJ school is even harder than BUD/S PHYSICALLY.

It is hard to compare the different SOFs directly because, as you note, they have at least slightly different candidate pools and also emphasize different things in training. To be in SF you have to be the ultimate team player, to be a SEAL you have to be able to handle a lot of pain and discomfort, to be a PJ you have to be operating at peak physical and mental performance, etc.

I do believe that the PJ's have the worst pass rate of non-Tier 1 SOFs, contributing to the pipeline's nickname as "superman school". I think it is something like 10%, compared to ~20% for SEALs (on average). For Tier 1, Delta's pass rate is supposed to be ABSURDLY worse than DEVGRU, because the former is basically taking applications from the entire army while the latter is inviting carefully picked candidates who are already known to the selection committee by their service in SEALs (or other SOFs - DEVGRU does take some non-SEALs).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Good point about who's in it. This thread has me reading Inside Delta Force (Haney's book) for the first time. The pass rate (which he says was the highest ever) for his group was about 7%. 163 started, 18 finished, and of those 18, 6 were ditched by the Commander's Board as unsuitable.

That sounds about right. As I mentioned above, DEVGRU is recruiting from a base that already has a very similar operational profile, but Delta has no direct "lesser" parallel in the Army. They have to cast a very wide net to catch the few Delta-capable candidates out there, and as a result have to reject a LOT of people in the process.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Not sure sure I believe that about BUD/S. It's gotten a lot of media attention, so we tend to know what BUD/S training looks like PHYSICALLY, but based on conversations I've had with members of the Special Operations community and the research I've done, AF PJ school is even harder than BUD/S PHYSICALLY.

What is AF PJ?

Good points about Delta vs SEAL.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

What is AF PJ?

United States Air Force Pararescue Jumper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...rce_Pararescue

[Icelander]

This thread seemed close enough for a couple of questions I have about CAG/Delta.

Does the unit have Warrant Officer billets? That is, can somebody like a Special Forces 180A Warrant Officer attend the Selection and Assessment and Operator Training Course (OTC) for 1st SFOD-D/CAG?

I know they don't take Sergeant-Majors (E-9), at least not according to recruitment ads published in Paraglide (E-4 to E-8 for enlisted interested in Selection and Assessment), but I haven't found information on whether Warrant Officers are accepted.

Also, is there an age cut-off for attending OTC?

Do they accept 35+ year-old SF SNCOs and/or 40+ year-old CW2s or higher?

What about operators who do several years in the unit straight out of the 75th Ranger Regiment and before attending SFQC; then go on to be the Team Sergeant or Assistant Detachment Commander of a 'regular' ODA in a Special Forces Group after they do SFQC, but then want to come back to 1st SFOD-D in some sort of command or SNCO capacity later?

Is that possible?

Common?

Would they repeat OTC?