Help with a Grim Survival DF Setting

[scc]

I wouldn't break the armor up like that, just use full suits

[DAT]

Originally Posted by scc

I wouldn't break the armor up like that, just use full suits

Definitely easier, but less like they are getting battle salvage. Maybe I will add the option to find a complete suit to the table.

[Varyon]

First off, assuming they bothered to read that journal excerpt, don't bother with rolls and the like to see if they survive the descent - as suggested in the journal, they will have tied themselves to the chain to prevent such a problem (untying themselves near the bottom so they aren't defenseless, of course, will be a concern).

If you're going with the description from that excerpt, the prisoners are lowered without any equipment to speak of, needing to grab something from the pile once they get down there. The first ones down are guaranteed to die (for fairness, don't have the PC's be the first ones down), but later comers may have a few seconds to pick up a weapon from the pile. Armor won't be a concern until after the battle, at which point they can rummage through the supply pile for decent armor and perhaps a better weapon.

For casualties, and the PC's impact on them, what you could do is the following:

Give the White Tigers, as a group, a pool of "Morale Points." Wounding a tiger drops MP by 1 (and results in that tiger retreating), while slaying one drops MP by 5 (or more). Once the tigers are at 0 MP or lower, roll 3d6 against 12 every few seconds. Failure means the tigers Retreat, critical failure means they Rout. Every -5 to MP is a further -1 to this check. In the excerpt, let's say the tigers started with 15 MP - the 2 slain tigers would have dropped this to 5, and at 5 more tigers wounded they would have needed to start making checks against retreating.

During the battle, a set number of Redeemers are slain every few seconds (same time step as the morale check for the tigers). At 20% casualties, the first Martyr is incapacitated - at 40%, he is slain. At 60% casualties the second Martyr is incapacitated - at 80%, he is slain. When the tigers Retreat, they still claim their number of dead for that time span, dragging them off screaming into the darkness. If they Rout, they drop whoever they were holding and flee, stopping casualties there - and also leaving behind some of the casualties from the previous time step (if both Martyrs are still up, they save 75% of them; in one is still up, he saves 50% of them; if one is dead and the other incapacitated, he comes to in time to save 25% of them).

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Varyon

First off, assuming they bothered to read that journal excerpt, don't bother with rolls and the like to see if they survive the descent - as suggested in the journal, they will have tied themselves to the chain to prevent such a problem (untying themselves near the bottom so they aren't defenseless, of course, will be a concern).

I was thinking about the chance of falling burning hay-pitch bails hitting them, or being hit by falling Redeemers.

Originally Posted by Varyon

If you're going with the description from that excerpt, the prisoners are lowered without any equipment to speak of, needing to grab something from the pile once they get down there. The first ones down are guaranteed to die (for fairness, don't have the PC's be the first ones down), but later comers may have a few seconds to pick up a weapon from the pile. Armor won't be a concern until after the battle, at which point they can rummage through the supply pile for decent armor and perhaps a better weapon.

I was going back and forth over that. I was starting to think PCs going down unarmed was too harsh, so was thinking about the Redeemers being allowed to arm and armor up top (I was thinking about having one of the Brother Martyrs speak up for them, to gain the Brother some good will in the company). The Brother Martyrs and Trustee Redeemers will go down armed and armored.

What do folks think:
- Redeemers go down unarmed and unarmored, and have to go grab a weapon before a "White Tiger" rips them open and drags their body away to devour it,
- Redeemers go down armed, but not armored, or
- Redeemers go down armed and armored.

Is the first option too harsh or not?

Originally Posted by Varyon

For casualties, and the PC's impact on them, what you could do is the following:

Give the White Tigers, as a group, a pool of "Morale Points." Wounding a tiger drops MP by 1 (and results in that tiger retreating), while slaying one drops MP by 5 (or more). Once the tigers are at 0 MP or lower, roll 3d6 against 12 every few seconds. Failure means the tigers Retreat, critical failure means they Rout. Every -5 to MP is a further -1 to this check. In the excerpt, let's say the tigers started with 15 MP - the 2 slain tigers would have dropped this to 5, and at 5 more tigers wounded they would have needed to start making checks against retreating.

I like the idea. I'm just not sure how to implement it with a force of ~120 Redeemers and Brother Martyrs against 3d6x5 White Tigers at the start. Or are the wounding and subtracting of Morale Points based only on the PC versus White Tiger combat?

Originally Posted by Varyon

During the battle, a set number of Redeemers are slain every few seconds (same time step as the morale check for the tigers). At 20% casualties, the first Martyr is incapacitated - at 40%, he is slain. At 60% casualties the second Martyr is incapacitated - at 80%, he is slain. When the tigers Retreat, they still claim their number of dead for that time span, dragging them off screaming into the darkness. If they Rout, they drop whoever they were holding and flee, stopping casualties there - and also leaving behind some of the casualties from the previous time step (if both Martyrs are still up, they save 75% of them; in one is still up, he saves 50% of them; if one is dead and the other incapacitated, he comes to in time to save 25% of them).

Two other variables here are the arrival rate of the Redeemers and the White Tigers.

Assuming 5 Brother Martyrs, 15 Redeemer Trustees, and 100 Redeemers.
The Redeermer Trustees land first, over the coarse of ~9 seconds, and the Brother Martyrs take and additional ~3 seconds to land. The rest of the Redeemers arive at a rate of 2 every 3 seconds. So it takes ~165 seconds for the entire company to land. The White Tigers (attracted by the smell of blood from fallen Redeemers and the sight of the burning pitch-hay bails, which they now associate with food) will start attacking within 3d6x(d3) seconds (not sure if I should have a delay based on the number of fallen Redeemers) of start of the arrival. So on average, 26 Redeemers (the 15 Redeemer Trustees, 5 Brother Martyrs, and 6 normal Redeemers; 4 armed, 2 still grabing weapons) will be on the ground when the first White Tigers attack.

I'm not sure what rate I should have the White Tigers arrive, maybe 20% of the total per wave, with 5 waves separated by 3d6 seconds between them?

Now I have to figure in the number of Brother Martyrs, Trustees, and normal Redeemers are wounded/killed over the course of each attack, and how many White Tigers are wounded/killed.

If I don't watch it, I'll turn this into a calculus problem.
-Dan

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DAT

I was thinking about the chance of falling burning hay-pitch bails hitting them, or being hit by falling Redeemers.

There's grim, then there's "Don't bother putting thought into the character." For the former, we only really care about the guys that manage to reach the bottom of the shaft - a character that gets whacked with a burning bail or falling body is one that, as far as I'm concerned "died during character generation." If you prefer the latter, of course, feel free to have a random chance of each character getting killed during the descent.

Originally Posted by DAT

I was going back and forth over that. I was starting to think PCs going down unarmed was too harsh, so was thinking about the Redeemers being allowed to arm and armor up top (I was thinking about having one of the Brother Martyrs speak up for them, to gain the Brother some good will in the company). The Brother Martyrs and Trustee Redeemers will go down armed and armored.

Not a horrible idea, although a lot of the Redeemers will be desperate enough to try and fight back as soon as they're armed and armored up. As far as those of the Faith are concerned, this is likely an unnecessary risk. They may let them armor up before descending, however.

Originally Posted by DAT

I like the idea. I'm just not sure how to implement it with a force of ~120 Redeemers and Brother Martyrs against 3d6x5 White Tigers at the start. Or are the wounding and subtracting of Morale Points based only on the PC versus White Tiger combat?

PC's only - the NPC's are doing a bit of wounding and being wounded (and killed) during the fight, but it's the PC's actions that really matter for this. If you'd like, you could have the tigers' MP gradually decreasing at a constant rate during the fight to represent the NPC contribution.

Originally Posted by DAT

Two other variables here are the arrival rate of the Redeemers and the White Tigers.

I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be. The important thing should really be what the PC's are doing. Once a PC lands, he'll have somewhere around 3d6 seconds to find a suitable weapon (either from the pile or from an already-defeated Redeemer) before he's set upon by a White Tiger. While the PC's will probably land at different times, it will be in their best interest to group up as soon as possible - assume a newly-landed PC manages to find the group 3d6 seconds after arming up (faster if he dispatches his foe).

For the tigers, I'd probably roll 1d3 per PC; this is how many tigers that PC faces. The first tiger shows up as above; if there are more than 1, the next shows up 2d6 seconds later, the final 2d6 seconds after that. Each time a tiger is wounded, it attempts to retreat; if successful, it will be replaced in 1d6 seconds by a fresh tiger. If a tiger is slain, it takes 2d6 seconds for it to be replaced. Once the PC reaches the rest of the group - or dies trying - his contribution of tigers joins those fighting the group (if one character has 3 tigers and another has only 1, the two together will face 4 - and these tigers won't favor any character over the other).

Originally Posted by DAT

Now I have to figure in the number of Brother Martyrs, Trustees, and normal Redeemers are wounded/killed over the course of each attack, and how many White Tigers are wounded/killed.

I missed the Trustees in my previous analysis; I'd say they follow a similar trend to the Martyrs, suffering incapacitation (and later death) at certain thresholds of total casualty values. Assume 5 of them are killed before the PC's get involved. After this, every 5% of casualties incapacitates one, who dies 10% later. That is, you have 10 Trustees to start. At 5%, you have 9 up, 1 down. At 10%, you have 8 up, 2 down. At 15%, you have 7 up, 2 down, 1 dead. 20%, 6-2-2; 25%, 5-2-3; 30%, 4-2-4; 35%, 3-2-5; 40%, 2-2-6; 45%, 1-2-7; 50%, 0-2-8; 55%, 0-1-9; 60%, 0-0-10. Assume that, once the tigers are driven off, the Martyrs prioritize the healing of the Trustees, and all the incapacitated ones are healed back up enough to survive (note this means you could actually ignore the Wounded in the above analysis, making it so the first Trustee dies at 15%, and another dies every 5% beyond that).


At least, the above is probably how I'd run this scenario - but I probably wouldn't be running it in the first place.

[GodBeastX]

Easiest way to make GURPS grim is take away magical healing or make it very rare. Let people rely on recovery, First Aid, Physician, Esoteric Medicine. That's something that makes combat scary for PCs is when they take 1 point of damage and know healing that is going to be a bitch!

[DAT]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

Easiest way to make GURPS grim is take away magical healing or make it very rare. Let people rely on recovery, First Aid, Physician, Esoteric Medicine. That's something that makes combat scary for PCs is when they take 1 point of damage and know healing that is going to be a bitch!

I agree in general. The initial Dragonlance world had that feel.

But the lack of healing can also become more of a pain (i.e., borring) in a group, rather than grim. One PC gets hit in the first encounter, while the other 5 are untouched, so everyone has to go wait for days until the first PC heals. And there is no guarantee that the same won't happen in the second encounter, and everyone have to wait for another X days. It is sort of like 1st level magic-users in OD&D; cast their spell in the first encounter, then go hide for the rest of the day. And then if you impose other contrains, like the need to hunt food, you endup with PCs being left at base camp healing, so some sessions one or more PCs will have nothing to do but sit and heal. It might work for troup play.

For this campaign setting, the only initial healing is via the Brother Martyrs that come down with the PCs. That puts a sever limit on the availability of healing, and will hopefully give some of that grim fealing.
-Dan

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Varyon

There's grim, then there's "Don't bother putting thought into the character." For the former, we only really care about the guys that manage to reach the bottom of the shaft - a character that gets whacked with a burning bail or falling body is one that, as far as I'm concerned "died during character generation." If you prefer the latter, of course, feel free to have a random chance of each character getting killed during the descent.

Like I said in an earlier post, I'll be doing more of a three strikes your out on the chain ride down, rather than auto kill. I do want to leave the PCs with some agency.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Not a horrible idea, although a lot of the Redeemers will be desperate enough to try and fight back as soon as they're armed and armored up. As far as those of the Faith are concerned, this is likely an unnecessary risk. They may let them armor up before descending, however.

Very good point. I think I'm decided with Armored, but not armed, up top. Grab an available weapon down at the bottom.

Originally Posted by Varyon

PC's only - the NPC's are doing a bit of wounding and being wounded (and killed) during the fight, but it's the PC's actions that really matter for this. If you'd like, you could have the tigers' MP gradually decreasing at a constant rate during the fight to represent the NPC contribution.

Yes, I think I'll target a certain casuality rate if the PC's don't do anything, and work back.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be. The important thing should really be what the PC's are doing. Once a PC lands, he'll have somewhere around 3d6 seconds to find a suitable weapon (either from the pile or from an already-defeated Redeemer) before he's set upon by a White Tiger. While the PC's will probably land at different times, it will be in their best interest to group up as soon as possible - assume a newly-landed PC manages to find the group 3d6 seconds after arming up (faster if he dispatches his foe).

Me make it more difficult on myself ... hardly ever, ... okay sometimes, ... well okay most times, ... hey I'm a GURPS GM, what do you expect :-)

Originally Posted by Varyon

For the tigers, I'd probably roll 1d3 per PC; this is how many tigers that PC faces. The first tiger shows up as above; if there are more than 1, the next shows up 2d6 seconds later, the final 2d6 seconds after that. Each time a tiger is wounded, it attempts to retreat; if successful, it will be replaced in 1d6 seconds by a fresh tiger. If a tiger is slain, it takes 2d6 seconds for it to be replaced. Once the PC reaches the rest of the group - or dies trying - his contribution of tigers joins those fighting the group (if one character has 3 tigers and another has only 1, the two together will face 4 - and these tigers won't favor any character over the other).

Yes, I like this abstracted approach. Not too complex, but keeps the players on their toes.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I missed the Trustees in my previous analysis; I'd say they follow a similar trend to the Martyrs, suffering incapacitation (and later death) at certain thresholds of total casualty values. Assume 5 of them are killed before the PC's get involved. After this, every 5% of casualties incapacitates one, who dies 10% later. That is, you have 10 Trustees to start. At 5%, you have 9 up, 1 down. At 10%, you have 8 up, 2 down. At 15%, you have 7 up, 2 down, 1 dead. 20%, 6-2-2; 25%, 5-2-3; 30%, 4-2-4; 35%, 3-2-5; 40%, 2-2-6; 45%, 1-2-7; 50%, 0-2-8; 55%, 0-1-9; 60%, 0-0-10. Assume that, once the tigers are driven off, the Martyrs prioritize the healing of the Trustees, and all the incapacitated ones are healed back up enough to survive (note this means you could actually ignore the Wounded in the above analysis, making it so the first Trustee dies at 15%, and another dies every 5% beyond that).

The Trustees will take it on the chin, since they are trying to defend the Brother Martyrs. I'm thinking they are all killed by the overall 50% casualty level. I'll tweak the other rates to come up with my targets.

Originally Posted by Varyon

At least, the above is probably how I'd run this scenario - but I probably wouldn't be running it in the first place.

I appreciate your insights.

-Dan