GURPS M:tA

[lugaid]

Now we seem to be getting somewhere!

I think that you are underestimating the amount of work that can be dumped on the players. Specifically, here, if a player wanting to play an Etherite wants to have some wildly variant tech (and I had forgotten about Weird Science, which should definitely be added into their options), then give them the job and opportunity to write it up, subject to GM approval.

Regarding the VAs, I can see that (remember that I haven't read the splatbooks, so most of that stuff is new to me), and if a player wanted to do that stuff, I'd work with them to figure out ways to cover it. In regard to the point that a VA could study beyond their little sub-"genre", as it were, that brings up the idea that any PC could, potentially, develop multiple "paradigms" and pick up advantages, powers, or skills from more than one Tradition, a potential advantage of using GURPS over the less flexible WW system.

Plus, that cybernetics stuff really looks like the VAs aren't as removed from the Technocrats as they want everyone to believe (which, actually, is probably a thread I'd follow: there is an increasingly large set of former cyberpunks in the real world who, like Jaron Lanier, have come to believe that the computer revolution has been completely subverted to the purposes of Power, though I am oversimplifying the position they express, and they make some good points).

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by lugaid

I think that you are underestimating the amount of work that can be dumped on the players.

Nah; my position has never been “it’s too much work!” I have argued that a lot of the work is unnecessary or misplaced; but I’ve never opposed it on the basis of sheer quantity.

Originally Posted by lugaid

Specifically, here, if a player wanting to play an Etherite wants to have some wildly variant tech (and I had forgotten about Weird Science, which should definitely be added into their options), then give them the job and opportunity to write it up, subject to GM approval.

This makes me wonder how thoroughly you read my counterproposal; because I have Weird Science at the heart of the Etherites.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that in the oWoD, the magic of the Awakened isn’t the only game in town. There are other kinds of magic (collectively referred to as “Sorcery” or “Hedge Magic”) that aren’t rooted in the premise that magic is an extension of the mage. Instead, they depend on properties inherent to the world itself (commonly referred to as “mythic threads”); and the Sorcerers who practice these arts do so by binding themselves to these mythic threads and then learning how to go about manipulating them. If I was doing MtA in GURPS 4e, the sorts of things that you’re suggesting are exactly how I’d handle the various Sorceries.

I’d also point out that the various Sorceries overlap in no small part with the various paradigms of the Awakened, to the point that it takes a discerning eye to tell the difference; some have even theorized that the Awakened paradigms created the mythic threads that are at the heart of the Sorceries (though there’s no proof of that, and it may merely be the infamous hubris of the Awakened to make that claim). This is part of what I was going for when I talked about each paradigm getting suitable rules modifications through Style Perks, and was also the reason behind my suggestion that every paradigm be given a “Power Limitation” that captures the shortcomings inherent in that paradigm. To illustrate what I have in mind:

• The Order of Hermes doesn’t practice spell magic as defined in GURPS Magic; but there are sorcerers in the setting who do; and because the Hermetic paradigm uses the Magic Power Modifier, wizards of the Order deal with many of the same issues that “Hermetic sorcerers” have to deal with, such as fluctuating mana levels. So it can be tricky at times to distinguish a Hermetic mage from a Hermetic sorcerer. Matters are even messier in that members of the Order of Hermes aren’t prevented from learning and using the spells of Hermetic sorcerers; indeed, the same Magery that acts like a Power Talent for them also serves as an enabler for regular spell magic. It’s just that this option is rarely pursued because study of the Realms is so much more effective than learning spells one by one. Likewise, both types of Hermetics find it useful to study Thaumatology — though the Awakened ones arguably get more use out of the skill than the Sleeper ones do.

• The Dreamspeakers’ Spirit-based paradigm means that they don’t have to worry about fluctuating mana levels the way that the Order of Hermes does; but they do have to worry about appeasing the spirits, and they depend on Ritual Magic. They coexist with “Sleeper shamans” who practice a type of Path Magic reminiscent of the magic system found in Voodoo: the Shadow War: Ritual Magic as the core skill; five or six Paths (including Spirit, Health, and Nature; probably also including two or three of Luck, Protection, Knowledge, and Dreams); the need for long rituals, sacred space, and ritual symbols; etc. And the Dreamspeakers’ own powers, while definitely a cut above those of the Sleeper shamans, resemble them in several ways.

And so on.

Originally Posted by lugaid

Regarding the VAs, I can see that (remember that I haven't read the splatbooks, so most of that stuff is new to me), and if a player wanted to do that stuff, I'd work with them to figure out ways to cover it. In regard to the point that a VA could study beyond their little sub-"genre", as it were, that brings up the idea that any PC could, potentially, develop multiple "paradigms" and pick up advantages, powers, or skills from more than one Tradition, a potential advantage of using GURPS over the less flexible WW system.

That all depends on how you define “flexible”.

Originally Posted by lugaid

Plus, that cybernetics stuff really looks like the VAs aren't as removed from the Technocrats as they want everyone to believe (which, actually, is probably a thread I'd follow: there is an increasingly large set of former cyberpunks in the real world who, like Jaron Lanier, have come to believe that the computer revolution has been completely subverted to the purposes of Power, though I am oversimplifying the position they express, and they make some good points).

Oh, certainly! That said, the VAs have never tried to pretend that they’re not technomancers (though there’s a lot more “-mancer” than “techno-” in the Reality Hackers); and the main divide between them and the Technocracy has less to do with what paradigm they favor than with what they shuld do with that paradigm: liberation vs. control is much more at the heart of the dispute between the Technocracy and the VAs than what paradigm to use.

Heck, that’s true (albeit to a somewhat lesser extent) of every Tradition: the Ascension War isn’t about what form magic should take; it’s about what you should do with it.