Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by DCB

That wasn't the consensus, though, for two main reasons.

First and most importantly, as safisher pointed out, the required skill level strongly depends on what GURPS actions you're choosing to use to represent the real-life actions. The difference between a double-tap every 1 second (AoA) and every 2 seconds (Aim then AoA) is massive in GURPS terms -- up to +6[1] -- which is the difference between skill levels of "not even professional grade" and "stands out among experts". It's not clear which set of actions are correct -- or whether GURPS even has a good match -- but it's certainly the case that there's by necessity a very large subjective component in translating reality into GURPS actions here.

I understand the differences here. But I think it's crucial that you understand the scenario. The amount of time you have to execute a breach & clear on a room with bad guys and hostages is extremely short. I simply don't believe you will have the luxury of time to be able to take an AIM maneuver between each shot. Yes, doing so would net a +4 to each shot, and that's drastic. But don't you think the MOST skilled Hostage Rescue unit in the US should be capable of doing something like that in that short amount of time?

Secondly, the Skill 18/21 estimate seems to have a couple of omissions:
- Each Targeted Attack bonus can go +1 higher (TS p.45 says to round up)
- MP5 has Rcl 2, not 3 (HT p.123-124, no apparent errata)
- Trademark Move: Half-Move and AoA (Determined) Double Tap (Vitals) (TS p.41, suggested on TS p.15)
Each of these gives an additional +1 to hit in the scenario.

You are right on about the first two. TA Vitals maxes out at -1 and TA Face maxes it out at -2, though I'm still not convinced that the "Headshots" would be counted as Face hits in GURPS and not Skull hits. For Skull hits, even with maxed out TA, you are back at -3. And yes, Rcl 2 for the MP5.

And I'm not so sure I'd include trademark move. It seems a little overly specific for a team of operators that have to be very capable in lots of different circumstances.

So if we do maxed TA SMG/Skull for -3 and -2 for Rcl, you still need a skill of 20 to have a net 15 to do this in a real life situation.

With these additions, the required skill goes down to:
- Guns-18: minimal miss chance in combat
- Guns-15: minimal miss chance in training (what was observed)
- Guns-12: minimal miss chance in combat with basic aiming
- Guns-9: minimal miss chance in training with basic aiming

We've covered this. You won't have time for the AIM maneuver. And if you don't include trademark move and shoot for the skull, you are back to skill 20 in combat, skill 17 in training.

One thing we keep forgetting about too is that just because we witness a certain definable MINIMUM skill level in the training scenario doesn't mean that the Delta Cadre couldn't be BETTER than that. Sure, it takes a MINIMUM skill 17 to do repeat what those guys do in training, but is it unrealistic to expect these operators to be able to do the same thing in combat? Is that the level you think they train to?

Note that Guns-14/15 is the canonical estimate for specops soldiers (TS p.42), so the fast way of modeling their training (AoA with no aiming) appears to be fairly reasonable with these additions.

You can't compare Delta or DevGru to normal Special Operations soldiers. The quality of there shooting skills is well above and beyond that of other SpecOps units. It has to be because of the nature of their missions.

[1] +3 base Acc +2 Acc from Very Fine(Accurate) weapon +1 Acc from match grade ammunition. A Very Fine gun's cost and time commitment is so minimal relative to specops training that it seems reasonable to expect.

They might be using good quality weapons, but I'd bet money that they weren't using VERY FINE MP5s with "Match 9mm ammo". None of that matters squat anyway if you aren't able to take turns actually aiming.