GURPS M:tA

[lugaid]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

“MWoD”?

"My World of Darkness".

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Umm, no; that’s the nWoD’s Mage: the Awakening.

It didn't interest me on a general basis, and that makes me even less interested. But I digress.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

“There is no True Reality other than what you experience” is a declaration of there being “One True Reality” — namely, the One True Reality is that reality is subjective. This has the drawback that it declares that Technocrats aren’t just morally wrong, but also objectively delusional about the true nature of reality. Granted, the “subjective reality” line is the most common theory voiced by the Traditions; but it’s exactly that: a theory. The underlying truth that I referred to isn’t so much that there’s a singular One True Reality as it is that every form of magic featured in Mage: the Ascension shares the common feature that magic is based on some sort of inherently human quality. What that quality is and how it manifests varies by Tradition, so (in theory at least) you still get interesting and chaotic interactions between them. I’ll agree that Mage: the Ascension didn’t go as far as it could have in featuring the practical distinctions among the Traditions, which is why my proposal goes further; but I’d be leery about going as far as to give each one a wholly distinct and largely incompatible magic system of its own.

That seems fair enough.

One of the things, though, that I've noticed about 4E is that, even though these systems may seem incompatible on the surface, it seems as though the generally smoothed-out mechanics removes much of that incompatibility. That is, whether you are using a gun or a missile spell, it has DMG, Range, 1/2 D, ACC, and so on. Other effects are given similarly according to general conditions in the rules, such as "Agony" or "Euphoria" (p.B428), and so on. That is, the powers interact with elements in the basic rules, rather than directly interacting with each other's idiosyncrasies, for the most part.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

If you’re looking for a setting that features a large number of fundamentally different magic systems coexisting, you don’t need Mage: the Ascension to do so. Eden Studio’s Witchcraft and Conspiracy X both feature multiple systems of supernatural powers; Deadlands features at least four such systems (gambler card magic, preachers wielding holy power, Native American shamans, and literally mad scientists).

All of which are good choices, but my interest here is in MtA.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Well, I did say that it’s not a particularly good fit. But it’s as good a fit as your approach to the VAs; and if you’re comfortable with grossly oversimplifying the VAs as Machine Telepaths, then you shouldn’t have a problem with similarly grossly oversimplifying Cultists of Ecstasy as bards.

That brings up another point, though. You say that the VAs are more than just Machine Telepaths. That may be the case, but I don't see much reason to go further, myself. What, specifically, do you think could or should be added?

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Not just individual splatbooks; later editions of the game expand the scope of each Tradition so that it’s less of a rigid stereotype. For instance: even in the second edition, Etherites are no longer just mad scientists in the Tesla or Steampunk mold: they’re the guys responsible for Quantum Mechanics; and it’s entirely possible and appropriate to play an Etherite who’s Science is straight out of bleeding edge sci-fi.

Basically, every Tradition had its philosophical roots deepened as of the second edition; and while every Tradition has room for the stereotype that the first edition of the game pushed, none is restricted to it. My single biggest issue with your approach is that it narrows the Traditions back down to shallow stereotypes — sometimes very shallow.

I don't see how modeling the Etherites (to choose the available example) as Gadgeteers simplifies them overmuch. Just allow those to purchase High TL and pick up higher TL skills, in addition to or as an alternative to TL N+X. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

“Disparate” isn’t a later concept; it’s a more recent name for what the game originally called Crafts. So yes, that’s exactly it: they’re Ascension War minorities who never forged any alliances, and thus suffered for the lack thereof.

Ah, OK. Thank you.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by lugaid

That brings up another point, though. You say that the VAs are more than just Machine Telepaths. That may be the case, but I don't see much reason to go further, myself. What, specifically, do you think could or should be added?

The premise is all wrong. “Machine Telepathy” assumes that the purpose of VA magic is to manipulate computers; it isn’t. Rather, computers are the tools they use to work their magic. Looking at the various VA subtypes (known as “alts”):

• The Cyberpunks are hardware freaks, and are often riddled with cybernetic implants every bit as much as Iteration X Technocrats are. They deal primarily with Forces effects.
• Cypherpunks are masters of mind magic: think “GURPS Horror: the Madness Dossier”, with a mastery of neuro-linguistics that allows them to use sensory impressions to rewire the brain.
• Chaoticians are VAs who are masters of prediction: in mystical terms, they use digital phenomena as a means of divination — and sometimes they get proactive and set up “feedback loops” that let them alter said digital phenomena in a way that alters the prediction, altering the future and giving rise to what more traditional mages call blessings and curses. Which brings us to:
• The Reality Coders are technomages who create digital simulations of reality, invoke the mystical Law of Similarity to link their simulations to the things being simulated, and then edit the simulation, causing the changes they make to be echoed in the thing being simulated. For instance, an expert in Life magic could use this technique to modify a creature’s genetic code to cause mutations; or an expert in Forces could model a weather system and then edit it to generate (or prevent) a thunderstorm. An expert in Matter could model a lump of coal and then restructure the model to one representing a diamond, or carbon nanotubes. And so on.
• The Nexplorers are the “netrunner” VAs who operate in the Digital Web; they’re the ones who work their magic to manipulate computers. That’s one alt out of five…

Note that these aren’t mutually exclusive categories; any VA could dabble in any of these areas. These are merely the areas that each alt is best known for. So yes, there are VAs for whom something like Machine Telepathy might be appropriate; but I wouldn’t want to reduce the whole Tradition to just that.

Originally Posted by lugaid

I don't see how modeling the Etherites (to choose the available example) as Gadgeteers simplifies them overmuch. Just allow those to purchase High TL and pick up higher TL skills, in addition to or as an alternative to TL N+X. Problem solved.

That does cover a significant amount of ground, yes. But does it cover, say, Occult Mechanics?

Spoiler:  

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Which alternate tech lets an Etherite apply the Heterodyne Corollary to a Hermetic’s magical tools, as in the linked example? At what TL do Fortean Phenomena diverge? More often than not, Ether Science isn’t Ultra-Tech, Divergent Tech, or Superscience (i.e., TL9+, TLx+y, or TLn^, respectively); it’s Weird Science, something that GURPS has a skill for but lacks any sort of standardized rules for, because it’s potentially all over the board.


BTW: for any Tradition that you’d consider modeling with GURPS Powers, I would strongly recommend allowing the player to make liberal use of the “Using Abilities at Default” optional rule: a hallmark of every variety of magic in Mage: the Ascension is the versatility of the mage. Likewise, I’d recommend the Ritual Magic variant on regular magic instead of the buy-every-spell-as-a-separate-skill approach, for much the same reason. And “cinematic skill” types should probably get the Wild Talent Advantage (limited to cinematic skills) to give them some ability to improvise. In short: every magic system that you consider, you should look for whatever rules exist for allowing the magician to improvise.

[Flyndaran]

Ether science is TL^, as in that universe all TLs above present day, whatever that may be, is ^. The main difference being that technocratic TLs prefer to be TL 8+X^ rather than other unique variations.

[dataweaver]

There’s some truth to that — though Ether Science is even more “all over the map” than merely “all TLs above the present day”: for instance, there were Etherites into Steampunk before it was a thing. And there’s still the “Occult Mechanics” bit; though admittedly Fantasy-Tech 1 covers some of that.

But I contend that calling Ether Science “TL^” doesn’t buy you anything useful, as it gives you no practical guidelines as to what an Etherite can or can’t do. M:tA, at least, had the Spheres to provide some useful guidelines.

The other issue with using Gadgeteering to represent the Sons of Ether is that it only deals with inventing gadgets; unless you go really lenient with the rules and allow a Gadgeteer to invent a process or a theory, there are still things that Etherites ought to be able to do that Gadgeteer doesn’t cover.

[lugaid]

Now we seem to be getting somewhere!

I think that you are underestimating the amount of work that can be dumped on the players. Specifically, here, if a player wanting to play an Etherite wants to have some wildly variant tech (and I had forgotten about Weird Science, which should definitely be added into their options), then give them the job and opportunity to write it up, subject to GM approval.

Regarding the VAs, I can see that (remember that I haven't read the splatbooks, so most of that stuff is new to me), and if a player wanted to do that stuff, I'd work with them to figure out ways to cover it. In regard to the point that a VA could study beyond their little sub-"genre", as it were, that brings up the idea that any PC could, potentially, develop multiple "paradigms" and pick up advantages, powers, or skills from more than one Tradition, a potential advantage of using GURPS over the less flexible WW system.

Plus, that cybernetics stuff really looks like the VAs aren't as removed from the Technocrats as they want everyone to believe (which, actually, is probably a thread I'd follow: there is an increasingly large set of former cyberpunks in the real world who, like Jaron Lanier, have come to believe that the computer revolution has been completely subverted to the purposes of Power, though I am oversimplifying the position they express, and they make some good points).

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by lugaid

I think that you are underestimating the amount of work that can be dumped on the players.

Nah; my position has never been “it’s too much work!” I have argued that a lot of the work is unnecessary or misplaced; but I’ve never opposed it on the basis of sheer quantity.

Originally Posted by lugaid

Specifically, here, if a player wanting to play an Etherite wants to have some wildly variant tech (and I had forgotten about Weird Science, which should definitely be added into their options), then give them the job and opportunity to write it up, subject to GM approval.

This makes me wonder how thoroughly you read my counterproposal; because I have Weird Science at the heart of the Etherites.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that in the oWoD, the magic of the Awakened isn’t the only game in town. There are other kinds of magic (collectively referred to as “Sorcery” or “Hedge Magic”) that aren’t rooted in the premise that magic is an extension of the mage. Instead, they depend on properties inherent to the world itself (commonly referred to as “mythic threads”); and the Sorcerers who practice these arts do so by binding themselves to these mythic threads and then learning how to go about manipulating them. If I was doing MtA in GURPS 4e, the sorts of things that you’re suggesting are exactly how I’d handle the various Sorceries.

I’d also point out that the various Sorceries overlap in no small part with the various paradigms of the Awakened, to the point that it takes a discerning eye to tell the difference; some have even theorized that the Awakened paradigms created the mythic threads that are at the heart of the Sorceries (though there’s no proof of that, and it may merely be the infamous hubris of the Awakened to make that claim). This is part of what I was going for when I talked about each paradigm getting suitable rules modifications through Style Perks, and was also the reason behind my suggestion that every paradigm be given a “Power Limitation” that captures the shortcomings inherent in that paradigm. To illustrate what I have in mind:

• The Order of Hermes doesn’t practice spell magic as defined in GURPS Magic; but there are sorcerers in the setting who do; and because the Hermetic paradigm uses the Magic Power Modifier, wizards of the Order deal with many of the same issues that “Hermetic sorcerers” have to deal with, such as fluctuating mana levels. So it can be tricky at times to distinguish a Hermetic mage from a Hermetic sorcerer. Matters are even messier in that members of the Order of Hermes aren’t prevented from learning and using the spells of Hermetic sorcerers; indeed, the same Magery that acts like a Power Talent for them also serves as an enabler for regular spell magic. It’s just that this option is rarely pursued because study of the Realms is so much more effective than learning spells one by one. Likewise, both types of Hermetics find it useful to study Thaumatology — though the Awakened ones arguably get more use out of the skill than the Sleeper ones do.

• The Dreamspeakers’ Spirit-based paradigm means that they don’t have to worry about fluctuating mana levels the way that the Order of Hermes does; but they do have to worry about appeasing the spirits, and they depend on Ritual Magic. They coexist with “Sleeper shamans” who practice a type of Path Magic reminiscent of the magic system found in Voodoo: the Shadow War: Ritual Magic as the core skill; five or six Paths (including Spirit, Health, and Nature; probably also including two or three of Luck, Protection, Knowledge, and Dreams); the need for long rituals, sacred space, and ritual symbols; etc. And the Dreamspeakers’ own powers, while definitely a cut above those of the Sleeper shamans, resemble them in several ways.

And so on.

Originally Posted by lugaid

Regarding the VAs, I can see that (remember that I haven't read the splatbooks, so most of that stuff is new to me), and if a player wanted to do that stuff, I'd work with them to figure out ways to cover it. In regard to the point that a VA could study beyond their little sub-"genre", as it were, that brings up the idea that any PC could, potentially, develop multiple "paradigms" and pick up advantages, powers, or skills from more than one Tradition, a potential advantage of using GURPS over the less flexible WW system.

That all depends on how you define “flexible”.

Originally Posted by lugaid

Plus, that cybernetics stuff really looks like the VAs aren't as removed from the Technocrats as they want everyone to believe (which, actually, is probably a thread I'd follow: there is an increasingly large set of former cyberpunks in the real world who, like Jaron Lanier, have come to believe that the computer revolution has been completely subverted to the purposes of Power, though I am oversimplifying the position they express, and they make some good points).

Oh, certainly! That said, the VAs have never tried to pretend that they’re not technomancers (though there’s a lot more “-mancer” than “techno-” in the Reality Hackers); and the main divide between them and the Technocracy has less to do with what paradigm they favor than with what they shuld do with that paradigm: liberation vs. control is much more at the heart of the dispute between the Technocracy and the VAs than what paradigm to use.

Heck, that’s true (albeit to a somewhat lesser extent) of every Tradition: the Ascension War isn’t about what form magic should take; it’s about what you should do with it.