Driving & Defaults, again

[pfharlock]

One thing I've realized is that there are two types of unfamiliarity that are being discussed, (and I haven't been aware of the distinction through much of the conversation).

There's equipment unfamiliarity which by definition can't stack/apply unless you have the skill to begin with that's supposed to cover the case where your already good with say the rifle skill but then one day some young whipper snapper lays the x14 in front of you complete with laser sights and some new fangled action and the weapon your used to is an m14 with normal optics, (and yes I made that other gun up). You still have your skill, but you need to take some time to get familiar with the specifics of that model.

The other type is cultural familiarity which says if you are a tl3 viking, if that person sees a parked automobile for the first time, you won't even know what it is or what it's for. I could see stacking cultural unfamiliarity on top of not having the skill in that case.

Edit: I suppose it's gms call whether to stack the first case or not. I typically don't get that granular in my games to begin with. If someone had rifle skill and they end up with a laser rifle I would usually just let them use it, especially if they had some time to try it/ test it first.

[fifiste]

The equipment familiarity applying to defaults would make the situation where someone with no training will get significantly better after a few hours easily gamable though.

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by fifiste

The equipment familiarity applying to defaults would make the situation where someone with no training will get significantly better after a few hours easily gamable though.

I could really see that.

One reason I would resist stacking more penalties in most cases (although the thought of a Viking trying to slay a car with a sword might be too good to pass up), is because I feel they (the default penalties) are already pretty steep, and I don't want to be put into a position where I have to give a truckload of bonuses just to swing the game balance back to where I think it should be. At that point it feels like I'm just fighting the system.

Having said that, I can definitely see that allot of people might want a crunchier experience, in that case I could totally see adding that stuff in.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

There's equipment unfamiliarity which by definition can't stack/apply unless you have the skill to begin with that's supposed to cover the case where your already good with say the rifle skill but then one day some young whipper snapper lays the x14 in front of you complete with laser sights and some new fangled action and the weapon your used to is an m14 with normal optics, (and yes I made that other gun up). You still have your skill, but you need to take some time to get familiar with the specifics of that model.

By what definition can't that apply when you have the skill at default? While the Familiarity box on b.169 does seem to be written with the assumption that you have some applicable training, there's nothing there saying that the modifiers don't apply to skills at default.

It can't apply if you have the skill at 'not allowed to roll' due to the GM ruling that your background means you're forbidden any default for Guns, I suppose.

Originally Posted by pfharlock

Edit: I suppose it's gms call whether to stack the first case or not. I typically don't get that granular in my games to begin with. If someone had rifle skill and they end up with a laser rifle I would usually just let them use it, especially if they had some time to try it/ test it first.

By the book, a laser rifle doesn't use the Guns (Rifle) skill at all. It uses Beam Weapons (Rifle), which defaults from Guns (Rifle) at -4.

Originally Posted by pfharlock

I could really see that.

One reason I would resist stacking more penalties in most cases (although the thought of a Viking trying to slay a car with a sword might be too good to pass up), is because I feel they (the default penalties) are already pretty steep, and I don't want to be put into a position where I have to give a truckload of bonuses just to swing the game balance back to where I think it should be. At that point it feels like I'm just fighting the system.

Having said that, I can definitely see that allot of people might want a crunchier experience, in that case I could totally see adding that stuff in.

Do you generally have a lot of issues with the game balance of characters using weapons that they neither have the skill for nor have experience handling? That seems a bit of a specific and esoteric problem.

Though actually...a street criminal with a gun may well have both default skill and no opportunity to practice with their particular gun, so that might come up more often than one would think. And pose a pretty serious problem if it did, because however bad they may be I don't think a mugger or gang member with a gun they've never used before really should be rolling at DX-10!

And on the non-gritty end of course there's the cinematic 'totally untrained PC grabs the big scary weapon in the scene and uses it successfully' thing. If you want that to work, you might want to ignore familiarity altogether, or make it not apply to PCs.

[Fred Brackin]

There are specific details of using weapons or vehicles that I would include in "normal" Weapon Familiarity but notm allow on default use by soempone from the appropriate TL and culture. Note that the specific Gurps term of art "Cultural Familiarity" does not apply to TL Skills.

For example: it would be easier to use a Glock than some other guns if you just picked one up and never fired a gun before. A Glock goes bang when you pull the trigger as long as there are bullets in it.

You'd have to rack the slide on an M1911 before it would fire and you'd have to manually pull then hammer back on a Colt.45 "Peacemaker" every time you fired it. Just being from the right time and place will not necessarily tell you these things. I've seen too many people who didn't know them.

Similarly just jumping into a car with an automatic transmission is easier than if the car has a stick shift.. Then there are specific foibles on older cars like not flooding the carburetor or crank-starting a Model T. The Model T doesn't even have the "standard" arrangement of controls you're used to. That first appeared in the 1917 Cadillac and was eventuially almost universally copied.

I'm not sure even driving a stick is a penalty (or a Technique) to Driving and I know that shooting the above mentioned guns isn't a penalty once you have Familiarity. I suppose you could claim specific TDMs that applied only to Default use but that seems awkward to me. Having Unfamiliarity (but possibly having specific Unfamiliarities) apply to default use appears neater to me.

[Ulzgoroth]

For some of those, I'd be inclined to something along the lines of 'if unfamiliar with the item, roll IQ-based skill to avoid problems', with variations depending on the item. (Not knowing to rack the slide on an automatic or pull back the hammer every shot on a single action revolver I'd call total unfamiliarity with the relevant mechanism, which goes well beyond the normal non-familiarity of not having practiced with an example of the type before. Tactical Shooting implies that one point in Guns guarantees mastery of all variations of such basic operation within the skill's scope, but I don't think I agree.)

Also do note that TL-based penalties may apply for older devices. I'd be disinclined to impose them for a typical TL7 car, but sticking a modern driver in a Model T could invoke them in addition to an unfamiliarity penalty for the different car and maybe an extra one for the unusual control scheme..

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Is there any familiarity penalty that would give a -7? I've never heard of anything bigger than -4 for familiarity, which at worst makes having the skill useless (easy skill defaults to -4). Anything bigger sounds like you might just be using the wrong skill (such as the wrong gun specialty).

A guy who is experienced with bolt-action hunting rifles and has Guns at DX+1 tries to fire a 5.56mm (-2), gas-operated (-2), assault rifle with a pistol grip (-2). His effective skill is DX-5.

A guy who has never handled a firearm before in his life has a default of DX-4. Without familiarity his effective relative skill level is one higher.

Originally Posted by borithan

I thought Defaults and Familiarity penalties don't stack? I have a memory of it being stated that Defaults already take familiarity penalties into account. I will admit I don't have my books with me though.

Which is why I remember there being something specifically stating they don't stack, as I remember thinking exactly the same thing. I personally thought the familiarity rules were a bit harsh, and thought in most cases a flat -2 just made more sense.

I think you'll find that there is no such rule.

On Driving, while I don't think that someone who has one days worth of instruction should get a full points worth of skill, but I don't think most people driving do so at default (or an improved default via perks etc). My personal feeling would be that most drivers probably have 1 point and don't really improve from there. This is plenty when driving with a bonus on your commute, probably making a monthly roll ala a job roll. However as soon as it is put into stressful situations, rolling every few seconds with penalties or even just no bonuses in something like a car chase, that is just not going to be enough. On the other hand, default (or Dabblers) with a bonus just feel like they are going to fail too often even on routine tasks.

I think that when Kromm says that "most people" are driving at default he actually means "most people" not just people in the US with 2 hour daily commutes for decades.

Originally Posted by pfharlock

The other type is cultural familiarity which says if you are a tl3 viking, if that person sees a parked automobile for the first time, you won't even know what it is or what it's for. I could see stacking cultural unfamiliarity on top of not having the skill in that case.

I already said this, and Fred's said this, but I'll say this again Cultural Familiarity doesn't apply to either Driving or Guns. It applies primarily to social and artistic skills.

Edit: I suppose it's gms call whether to stack the first case or not. I typically don't get that granular in my games to begin with. If someone had rifle skill and they end up with a laser rifle I would usually just let them use it, especially if they had some time to try it/ test it first.

They will almost never stack, as you would need a skill that both uses complex equipment and has "manners". I suppose you could apply cultural familiarity to IQ-based driving to follow local traffic laws and customs, but you'd be unlikely to also be applying familiarity to that particular roll.

Originally Posted by fifiste

The equipment familiarity applying to defaults would make the situation where someone with no training will get significantly better after a few hours easily gamable though.

This is exactly what Tactical Shooting p. 46 says.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Though actually...a street criminal with a gun may well have both default skill and no opportunity to practice with their particular gun, so that might come up more often than one would think. And pose a pretty serious problem if it did, because however bad they may be I don't think a mugger or gang member with a gun they've never used before really should be rolling at DX-10!

They've presumably handled the weapon for awhile, had someone at least show them how to load it and operate the safety. I don't think it requires formal instruction or range time to count as the eight hours of practice.

And on the non-gritty end of course there's the cinematic 'totally untrained PC grabs the big scary weapon in the scene and uses it successfully' thing. If you want that to work, you might want to ignore familiarity altogether, or make it not apply to PCs.

Wild Talent doesn't expressly ignore familiarity, but it probably ought to.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Also do note that TL-based penalties may apply for older devices. I'd be disinclined to impose them for a typical TL7 car, but sticking a modern driver in a Model T could invoke them in addition to an unfamiliarity penalty for the different car and maybe an extra one for the unusual control scheme..

There's the optional rule in High-Tech that turns TL penalties on DX-based technological skills into familiarities, which seems to apply here.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

They've presumably handled the weapon for awhile, had someone at least show them how to load it and operate the safety. I don't think it requires formal instruction or range time to count as the eight hours of practice.

That's a much more optimistic presumption than I would make. Though I'm working from low information on the firearm practices of street criminals.

I also don't know if I'd agree with fully removing familiarity penalties without actually shooting the weapon. Informal training and study and some practice shots as opposed to a formal class and range time sure, fiddling with your gun a bit on your own without ever actually firing a shot, though...

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Wild Talent doesn't expressly ignore familiarity, but it probably ought to.

Hadn't thought about that, but I agree.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There's the optional rule in High-Tech that turns TL penalties on DX-based technological skills into familiarities, which seems to apply here.

Probably should, but without reviewing that rule, would it have any implications other than making it easier to 'buy off'?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That's a much more optimistic presumption than I would make. Though I'm working from low information on the firearm practices of street criminals.

I also don't know if I'd agree with fully removing familiarity penalties without actually shooting the weapon. Informal training and study and some practice shots as opposed to a formal class and range time sure, fiddling with your gun a bit on your own without ever actually firing a shot, though...

A some point we pass default with familiarity penalties into default without familiarity penalties. I think just handling the weapon and figuring out it's controls and loading scheme ought to at least buy off the -2 for action type and the -2 for grip.

Probably should, but without reviewing that rule, would it have any implications other than making it easier to 'buy off'?

It's pretty simple. It basically just says treat the TL penalties on DX-based skills as familiarities instead.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

A some point we pass default with familiarity penalties into default without familiarity penalties. I think just handling the weapon and figuring out it's controls and loading scheme ought to at least buy off the -2 for action type and the -2 for grip.

I think the question, which you'd probably be well qualified to answer really, is would you take a gun you hadn't shot before out for anything that mattered? Even if it was in a familiar caliber.