[RPM] Thoughts and clarifications

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I just got Ritual Path Magic (I still don't have Thaumatology proper), and I had a thought about allowing single-Path controlling skills. For instance, Esoteric Medicine is equivalent to Thaumatology for Path of Body only; Path of Body defaults to it at -6, you can have path of body skill no higher than the lesser of 12+magery or Esoteric Medicine, etc. Linked to this is the idea of allowing certain Talents to function as Magery(RPM) for a single Path (e.g. you can learn Path of Body up to the lower of 12+Healer talent and Esoteric Medicine, etc). Does this strike anyone as likely to be unbalancing? Should there be any additional charge for Talents that function this way? (I'm leaning towards not).

I don't see why you'd want to do this except for flavor and it's going to make magic a much poorer deal. What I would do if I were you is keep the Path cap as is, but allow a secondary skill replace Thaumatology - if better. So for your Path of Body example you could raise it no higher than Magery+12 or the higher of Thaumatology of Esoteric Medicine. As for Talents, if it brings the skill count of the Talent up it should increase the cost. So for Healer it wouldn't increase the cost (Healer encompasses 9 skills - adding more wouldn't break the threshold of a Medium-sized Talent, which is 12 skills or less).

Originally Posted by Dalillama

On a largely unrelated note, and just to make sure that I'm getting this right:
Alternate rituals based on Create Pocket Dimension:
Phantom Apartment:
Spell Effects: Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x7 +Lesser Create Energy + Lesser Control Spirit + Lesser Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).
This spell creates a fairly nice apartment in a pocket dimension. The caster and any
being he brings along can access it. It functions identically to
“normal” reality in all respects and has its own self-renewing
supply of air. The apartment is furnished with a bed, a sofa, an armchair, and a coffee table. The kitchen area has a two burner stove and a small refrigerator. The apartment has electricity and running water, and has an invisible servant who takes care of most needs.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matterx7 (42) + Lesser Create Energy (6)+ Lesser Create Spirit (6)+Lesser Control Spirit(5)Area of Effect, 7 yards (6) + Duration, 1 month
(11). 246 energy (82×3).

Why do you have so many Create Matter effects? You only need one plus the Subject Weight - which you're lacking here. You're creating stuff. What I'd do for a fully furnished apartment is figure out how much a given Status costs and then multiple that by 5. So a Status 0 apartment probably has about $3,000 worth of stuff (at most). Then consult the Create Matter chart (p. 16 of GURPS Thuamatology: Ritual Path Magic); in this case it'll require a IQ-5 roll to visualize what you're doing and create properly functioning objects.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Personal Oasis:
Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x3+Greater Create Body
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects : 2 (x5)

This spell creates an alternate dimensional area that the caster can access and bring others to. The oasis is filled with sand. In the center is a freshwater spring and a date palm. The air is breathable, the spring inexhaustible, and the dates edible.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter x3(18) + Greater Create Body(6)+ Area of Effect, 10 yards (8) + Duration, 1 month

As above. You can use a single Create effect to make multiple items and you're missing Subject Weight again.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

As I understand it, like the basic pocket dimension, these can both be renewed for 11 energy, is that right?

You can renew them up to the duration for the spell, yes.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I don't see why you'd want to do this except for flavor

Honestly, this is 90% of the reason; I just wanted to know if people who are more experienced with RPM saw some reason it was obviously broken in a munchkiny direction.

What I would do if I were you is keep the Path cap as is, but allow a secondary skill replace Thaumatology - if better. So for your Path of Body example you could raise it no higher than Magery+12 or the higher of Thaumatology of Esoteric Medicine.

Yes, that was what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear. But for people who don't have Thaumatology, Esoteric Medicine is their only available default.

Why do you have so many Create Matter effects? You only need one plus the Subject Weight - which you're lacking here.

You're creating stuff. What I'd do for a fully furnished apartment is figure out how much a given Status costs and then multiple that by 5.

Cost of living? I'm not sure I understand what number you're multiplying by 5 here.

So a Status 0 apartment probably has about $3,000 worth of stuff (at most). Then consult the Create Matter chart (p. 16 of GURPS Thuamatology: Ritual Path Magic); in this case it'll require a IQ-5 roll to visualize what you're doing and create properly functioning objects.

Now, per the Duplicate Object Ritual (p. 42 of GURPS Thuamatology: Ritual Path Magic), adding a Lesser Sense Matter effect and having a set of apartment furnishings on hand to duplicate into the phantom apartment would eliminate this problem, right? (it says you have to be touching the object to be duplicated, would adding Area of Effect change that?)

As above. You can use a single Create effect to make multiple items

This is the bit that I was failing to understand.

So, fixed:
Phantom Apartment:
Spell Effects: Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter. +Lesser Create Energy + Lesser Control Spirit + Lesser Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).
This spell creates a fairly nice apartment in a pocket dimension. The caster and any
being he brings along can access it. It functions identically to
“normal” reality in all respects and has its own self-renewing
supply of air. The apartment is furnished with a bed, a sofa, an armchair, and a coffee table. The kitchen area has a two burner stove and a small refrigerator. The apartment has electricity and running water, and has an invisible servant who takes care of most needs.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter (6) + Lesser Create Energy (6)+ Lesser Create Spirit (6)+Lesser Control Spirit(5)Area of Effect, 7 yards (6) + Duration, 1 month
(11) +Subject Weight (3,000 lbs) (5). 120 energy (40×3).


Personal Oasis:
Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x3+Greater Create Body
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects : 2 (x5)

This spell creates an alternate dimensional area that the caster can access and bring others to. The oasis is filled with sand. In the center is a freshwater spring and a date palm. The air is breathable, the spring inexhaustible, and the dates edible.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter (6) + Greater Create Body(6)+ Area of Effect, 10 yards (8) + Duration, 1 month (11) + Subject weight 450 tons (estimated weight of sand and water filling half that volume) (10). 235 (47x5)


You said in a different thread (I can probably find it if necessary) that the Greater Create Crossroads effect in Create Pocket Dimension (and thus by extension in these two spells) is only good for the initial access, and you'd need a separate Create Greater Crossroads effect to get back once you left. Would it be doable within the RAW to attach the initial Crossroads effect to something, creating a gate that exists for the duration of the spell? For instance a tent which, when you set it up and walk through the door you go to the oasis rather than the inside of the tent, or a cardboard box in an alley that leads to the phantom apartment?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Varyon

An interesting feature, and one that makes investing in alternate skills have more of a pay off, would be to allow appropriate charms to not be limited by Path of Magic at all. For example, the supplement charms I suggested, provided they have effects appropriate for Esoteric Medicine, simply require rolling against Path of Body - the price for Lesser Control Magic is still in effect, but the "roll against the lowest skill" rule isn't.

Note this should only apply to charms, not to normal conditionals, and the effect needs to be appropriate for the underlying skill. With Esoteric Medicine, a pill that cures cancer (Greater Restore Body) is fine - a pill that makes you grow wings (Greater Transform Body) not so much.

That also works; I was looking for a way to make charms available but not regular conditionals, and that would do it.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Honestly, this is 90% of the reason; I just wanted to know if people who are more experienced with RPM saw some reason it was obviously broken in a munchkiny direction.

Nope, the reverse of broken. Perhaps a bit too strict.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Yes, that was what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear. But for people who don't have Thaumatology, Esoteric Medicine is their only available default.

I could see this working, and I've actually done this before in a way. It was me toying with the rules where I tied the core skill in such a either/or manner for a fantasy campaign. I've got all the ways I've bent and broke the system in a file, this was one of the first things I tried, iteration something or other (somewhere in the teens).

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Cost of living? I'm not sure I understand what number you're multiplying by 5 here.

I shorthanded this a bit more than I thought I did. Basically, look up the status of the dwelling you're creating in your pocket dimension (see p. B265) - multiply that number by 5 and then use that as the amount for which you need to roll on your Create Matter effect. This way you don't have to say "It creates a couch, table, nightstand, etc." you say "It creates a Status 0 dwelling" and right away player and GM will know what that means.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Now, per the Duplicate Object Ritual (p. 42 of GURPS Thuamatology: Ritual Path Magic), adding a Lesser Sense Matter effect and having a set of apartment furnishings on hand to duplicate into the phantom apartment would eliminate this problem, right? (it says you have to be touching the object to be duplicated, would adding Area of Effect change that?)

Yes. It would. I'd require Area of Effect to be able to "scan" everything. That seems workable.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

This is the bit that I was failing to understand.

No biggie. :-)

Originally Posted by Dalillama

So, fixed:
Phantom Apartment:
Spell Effects: Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter. +Lesser Create Energy + Lesser Control Spirit + Lesser Create Spirit
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).
This spell creates a fairly nice apartment in a pocket dimension. The caster and any
being he brings along can access it. It functions identically to
“normal” reality in all respects and has its own self-renewing
supply of air. The apartment is furnished with a bed, a sofa, an armchair, and a coffee table. The kitchen area has a two burner stove and a small refrigerator. The apartment has electricity and running water, and has an invisible servant who takes care of most needs.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter (6) + Lesser Create Energy (6)+ Lesser Create Spirit (6)+Lesser Control Spirit(5)Area of Effect, 7 yards (6) + Duration, 1 month
(11) +Subject Weight (3,000 lbs) (5). 120 energy (40×3).

Right off, I don't see anything problematic with that.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Personal Oasis:
Greater Create Crossroads + Lesser Create
Matter.x3+Greater Create Body
Inherent Modifiers: Area of Effect.
Greater Effects : 2 (x5)

This spell creates an alternate dimensional area that the caster can access and bring others to. The oasis is filled with sand. In the center is a freshwater spring and a date palm. The air is breathable, the spring inexhaustible, and the dates edible.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Lesser Cre-
ate Matter (6) + Greater Create Body(6)+ Area of Effect, 10 yards (8) + Duration, 1 month (11) + Subject weight 450 tons (estimated weight of sand and water filling half that volume) (10). 235 (47x5)

I don't know if I'd try to figure out cost of sand and water like that...that's....annoying and finicky. Again, I don't see anything off.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

You said in a different thread (I can probably find it if necessary) that the Greater Create Crossroads effect in Create Pocket Dimension (and thus by extension in these two spells) is only good for the initial access, and you'd need a separate Create Greater Crossroads effect to get back once you left. Would it be doable within the RAW to attach the initial Crossroads effect to something, creating a gate that exists for the duration of the spell? For instance a tent which, when you set it up and walk through the door you go to the oasis rather than the inside of the tent, or a cardboard box in an alley that leads to the phantom apartment?

Yes. You'd use a Lesser Create effect to attach a "gateway" to a specific object or place for a specific pocket dimension.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I don't know if I'd try to figure out cost of sand and water like that...that's....annoying and finicky. Again, I don't see anything off.

So something a bit more handwavy for subject weight then?

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yes. You'd use a Lesser Create effect to attach a "gateway" to a specific object or place for a specific pocket dimension.

Heh, I have a sudden vision of a hobo Gate mage with backpack that's bigger on the inside (I have a ritual written up for that one around), in which he keeps a folded cardboard box just large enough for someone to crawl into. He rides the rails with a pack on his back, and never stays in one place very long, and is superficially indistinguishable from anyone else who's on the bum, but can be a very helpful ally or contact if approached right. Seems like a good fit for a magical 20s-40s setting.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

So something a bit more handwavy for subject weight then?

Honestly, I'm not sure how I'd handle it other than...not like that. It's not so much as "handwavy" as something like that would slow down gameplay and despite it's detractors - RPM is all about "ease of access."

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Heh, I have a sudden vision of a hobo Gate mage with backpack that's bigger on the inside (I have a ritual written up for that one around), in which he keeps a folded cardboard box just large enough for someone to crawl into. He rides the rails with a pack on his back, and never stays in one place very long, and is superficially indistinguishable from anyone else who's on the bum, but can be a very helpful ally or contact if approached right. Seems like a good fit for a magical 20s-40s setting.

Ye old bag of holding. I too, have done this in a game. The hobo part, not so much - but that's cool. I didn't ride the rails, but when I was 15 I wandered the east coast via Greyhounds. I did piecework, dishwashing, etc. for three months as I just wandered around. So I can dig where you're going with that. :-)

[Kalzazz]

Can you put a workspace in your magical apartment? (you cant use magic to boost magic, so you cant create a workspace I figure, but, if you already have one can you move it in there and set it up?)

How much space does a workspace consume? Can you lug it around with you and set it up in your room at the inn? Or in your dorm room? What about in a wagon?

Im definitely interested in seeing the Bag of Holding spell

Greater Control Matter to turn a boat into an airship has been one idea Ive pondered on lugging stuff around, the Voyageur Canoe seems wonderful for this purpose, being a high tech low tech bark canoe that practically screams to be labeled elven

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Can you put a workspace in your magical apartment? (you cant use magic to boost magic, so you cant create a workspace I figure, but, if you already have one can you move it in there and set it up?)

I see no reason why not.

How much space does a workspace consume? Can you lug it around with you and set it up in your room at the inn? Or in your dorm room? What about in a wagon?

Per p 18, a fine kit fills a large room and takes 20 hours to set up or pack for moving, so the phantom apartment might need an area upgrade if you want that plus living spaces. The other two are 200 lbs and 20 lbs respectively, so you probably could haul them around conveniently with you.

Im definitely interested in seeing the Bag of Holding spell

This one is based on something from a book, but it can easily be adjusted for larger weights and a different object.
Sleeves of Holding:
Spell Effects: Greater Create Crossroads
Inherent modifiers:
Greater Effects:1(x3)

Allows the user to store up to 50 lbs of supplies in their sleeves without encumbrance. The items must be small enough to fit up a sleeve in the first place.

Greater Create Crossroads (6)+ subject weight (50 lbs) (2)+ duration 1 day (7): 45(15x3)