Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

[Grouchy Chris]

This is great stuff. Permission to steal?

I notice that everyone's got cameras, and no one's got Photography. It might be useful to at least note the default.

No one's got Filch, Pickpocket, Smuggling, or Traps.

On the other hand, everyone's got Acting, Diplomacy, and Fast-Talk. It seems like being the Face could be one character's specialty, and everyone else could drop it.

No perks? Kromm made up some cool perks and wrote them up as parts of special ops training packages here.

Are you planning on point-optimizing?

[safisher]

Magazines for the rifles would be more like 12-24, total. Load bearing gear, and most other stuff, is going to be fine/expensive quality, and/or rugged, and/or combo gear. Long arms will have optics and lasers.

For further consideration, you should check out Pyramid 57 Gunplay, specifically Kenneth Peter's Warfighter Gear article. It has lots of very useful stuff for contemporary warriors. Pyramid 53 Action has some excellent templates and an article useful for planning operations, dealing with your Useful Gear issues to some degree. Pyramid 55 Military Sci-Fi has another of Ken's articles, Future Soldier, which has a lot of worked up loadouts for TL9, but it shows how the gear loadouts can be constructed -- just dump the TL9 gear and exchange for TL8. Your SAD guys very well might have unlimited budgets, so there is no limit to the customization the boys might have. I know troops deploying in recent years have made very heavy personal investments in clothing, webgear, packs, optics, and knives. Some ideas of the lengths of custom "extreme sport" takes on this gear, that is it's probably fine quality/expensive can be found here:
http://tripleaughtdesign.com/
http://downrangegear.net/DownRangeGear.html
http://highthreatconcealment.com/products.html
http://www.hrdpnt.com/Detail.aspx?ID=54
https://www.aresgear.com/

[acrosome]

You've stuck with non-US yet western gear (thought the HK416 is arguable) with the sole exception of the SVD. Is there a reason you want the SVD? That kind of jumps out at me.

I mean, if you'll tolerate the HK416 as "non-US" then why not a PSG1 or any of several bolt-action options like the AI AW? Or a Barrett M82? If you're doing tacticool high-tech stuff with lasers and thermal weapon sights and all then why not go whole-hawg? HAHO in, OV-22 Osprey exfil. If they're doing HAHO they need to be jumping to within 20km or so of the border- you can only drift so far with HAHO. Self-exfil back across the border might be fun, and be a good reason to make the mission sterile or false-flag rather than merely deniable.

Because if you're going high-tech then, frankly, in comparison the SVD kinda sucks. It's a rather poor sniper rifle. (In reality, anyway.)

Personally I would think that a totally sterile mission (which is different than a deniable mission, and probably more appropriate since the US would be breaking an agreement that they made in a very public fashion) using only ex-ComBlock weapons and older western weapons that are widely distributed would be more interesting. So it would be stuff like AKs, SVDs, PKs or RPDs, FALs, G3s, etc. Maybe Galil/R4s or Finnish Valmets, but the idea is to stick to stuff that locals in Syria would have. Lots of old Russian stuff- there's even decent Russuan surplus night-vision stuff easily available on the open market, nowadays. And the Syrian army actually has some pretty nice stuff: speaking as a member of a heavily-mechanized force I find the RPG-29 to be particularly concerning.

A sterile mission would be sort of like in Navy SEALs (movie) when they were going into Beirut for the Stingers. As a nice touch you could have their handlers stuffing the PCs' pockets with Syrian cigarettes, faked family photos of them with their Arab-appearing wives and children, etc. Or better yet, make it totally false-flag with them impersonating Iranian Quds Force or Jaysh al-Shabi (since everyone knows Quds are operating in Syria, anyway). You'd need Persian speaker or Arabic speaker respectively for such a mission, though, and the fake-Quds should probably be bilingual with Arabic as well. But again, that'd be much more interesting- they could have to bluff their way past militia roadblocks, etc., in the chaotic Syrian environment.

An HK416 is too new and shiny. At least consider changing that to some other older M16 variant like M16A1 or CAR15A, since they are much more deniable. OTOH for most of the world HK416 = USSOCOM. While not totally accurate this is certainly the impression, so even if it's "deniable" having an HK416 turn up on Al Jazeera would still be pretty damning.

EDIT-- And Glocks might be better than SIGs. Glocks are fecking EVERYWHERE and though I've seen a few SIGs (and even 1911s) all of the Special Forces guys I've ever dealt with favored Glocks heavily. (Though personally I like and own SIGs. I'm just not a striker-fired kind of guy...)

[TheOneRonin]

This looks like my kind of game!

I love the concept, but have a few comments.

1. Your team is really on the younger side. Not that is really makes a huge deal, especially in a 1-shot that you are running at a con, likely for players who have ZERO real world military knowledge. But your CIA SAD guys should really be in their early 30s...maybe late 20s. If you remove the 1 year of SAD training they have to go through, plus their previous branch training, you are looking at a team that has an average of 3 - 5 years of operational experience. That's REALLY light for SAD guys. In fact, the Green Beret guy (prob an 18C) probably has the least amount of real SOF experience on the whole team, considering he would have needed 3 - 4 years in the regular Army before being eligible for SFAS, then about 18 months of actual SF training before being operational. Then he's got about 6 months of SOF operations before doing SAD training. I'm not as familiar with the timing and pipelines for SEALs/Devgru, but that guy is probably even worse. Add 6 - 10 years to their ages and you will be just about right.

2. IQ 10 for Army SF isn't going to cut it. Those guys are WAY more than trigger pullers. SF is a very cerebral force, and it's about winning the hearts and minds more than anything else. You not only have to be a good problem solver and able to think on your feet, but you must be capable of effectively interacting with many different people across many different cultures. The IQ 10 guys MIGHT make it pas SFAS, but they won't pass the Q course. I see that that he MARSOC and Ranger guys both have IQ 10 as well. That's probably a no-go for the MARSOC operator, but I could see a Ranger with IQ 10. Though that IQ 10 Ranger probably wouldn't pass SAD selection.

3. The other peeps on this thread are right about the HK416s. Great platforms, but you are pretty instantly flagged as NATO/American. A two second Wikipedia search shows that the Syrian military uses AK-47s and AKMs. That's what you want your team to carry. As a side note, that makes battlefield pickups a possibility.

<Forgot this one in my initial reply>
4. SAD PMOs HAVE to have a Bachelor's Degree as a minimum requirement. While many enlisted SOF personnel do find time to pick up college degrees during their service, it usually takes years and years to get there. All Officers will have a degree, but then you have to factor in 4 years of college/Military Academy into their age/experience.

Otherwise, it looks great, and sounds like a game I would love to be a part of.

[acrosome]

I'm going through the character sheets and agree- they need to be older. Oddly, special operators tend to be older, have creaky knees, and pop a lot of Motrin. Especially US Army SF guys- they've already led a hard life just to become SF. The Rangers are young- heck, fresh recruits can go to Ranger school. (Actually, with the new direct-enlistment 18Xs even SF has some rather young guys in it nowadays.) SEALS can be young, but it still takes well over a year just to train one. Force Recon I'm less familiar with, but they probably start somewhere in between SF and Rangers.

But it is highly unlikely that a mission like this would be entrusted to a pack of 22 year-olds. A 22 year-old cannot have completed an enlistment in special operations and then SAD training. Very few (still whole) SF guys only do one enlistment, anyway.

I've met some pretty dense Rangers, but if the guy made it into SAD then IQ9 probably wouldn't cut it.

As an Army guy I'm inherently biased against Force Recon, and agree that most are at best IQ10. But if they were selected for SAD they might be exceptional. :) So, clearly you have bought into the USMC propaganda. In your defense the Marines do have a vigorous PR department. But they also like to present the entire Marine Corps as an "elite" force, which the rest of the US Military finds farcical. Force Recon is a different animal, though. Nonetheless they are much more like Rangers than like SEALs or Army SFOD Delta.

I could be wrong but I suspect that SAD operators are no longer in the US Military and thus shouldn't have Military Rank. Perhaps courtesy rank if retired from the military, but they are now in the CIA as "paramilitary officers," so perhaps Administrative Rank? I've only dealt with CIA paramilitaries once, and I'm not entirely sure what operation group they'd fit in. But on one of my deployments they had their own little FOB inside my FOB and their medic would hang out with us and arrange range training for us with their expert, and I got the impression that they were now CIA civilians. But then again I guess you never really know with CIA guys, do you? By their nature they try to manage impressions. And, yes, the youngest one I met claimed an age of 32...

Even then, the DEVGRU guy wouldn't be a staff sergeant- he'd be a petty officer of some sort. (Navy, remember?) But an E6 special operator would be a rather inexperienced one, excepting the Ranger. Their promotions work faster than the rest of the military, so they tend to be rank-heavy. Unless your US Army SF guy was a direct-enlistment 18X he looks particularly odd that way. SF enlisted guys tend to have rank.

Does someone need a MasterKey or similar door-breaching widget, or are they just supposed to use the Semtex? Because if so they'd probably have some door-breaching charges pre-made. That's a common need. Maybe a GoBar, too?

I cannot comment intelligently about the internally-recruited CIA guy.

Do you have Martial Arts? Are you using any styles, or just generic GURPS unarmed skills? MCMAP in particular seems appropriate for the Marines and SEAL. I have yet to see a convincing stat of Army Combatives, but its mostly Judo and Wrestling- few blows are taught until higher levels.

Have you ever heard of an pursuit-deterrent munition? Those are handy. I think the US one is called M86, but it wouldn't be very deniable. I'm unfamiliar with other options. Maybe just a quick rig of a POMZ or OZM, or one of the many mines similar to the M18 Claymore like the MON-50 or MRUD?

[mook]

WOW!

This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you all for the excellent suggestions. I did the best I could as a civilian with an internet connection and an active imagination, but I knew there would be GURPSers out there who could fill in the cracks, and fill in the cracks you have! In particular, the firearms details, e.g., I only went with HK416s because to me it seemed, "Like an M4 carbine, but not American," whereas that seems to be very far from the truth (and, frankly, would have been embarrassing as the GM, since it seems pretty likely at least some of my players for this will know a lot more than I do.)

I'm not sure I'll be able to incorporate all the suggestions, but hopefully I'll have version 2.0s ready by tomorrow. The con is in five days, I haven't even posted for suggestions on the mission itself yet. :)

Possible things to look at:

• Job Training advantage
• Adding Photography skill (even at default)
• Adding Filch, Pickpocket, Smuggling, or Traps skills
• Enhancing one PC as more of a Face
• Review Pyramid 53, 55, 57
• Optics and laser sights for long arms
• WAY More magazines!
• Rethink weapon selections - look at "AKs, SVDs, PKs or RPDs, FALs, G3s," AKMs, Glocks instead of SIGs
• Give the team a cover as Quds/Jaysh al-Shabi
• Team members are way too young. Early 30s?
• IQ 10 is unlikely (just for the record -- the IQ 10s were solely because I thought being above average in *every* stat might start creeping into cinematic territory, not because I think soldiers are dim!)
• Do SAD operators retain their military rank?
• Door-breaching charges
• Unarmed combat styles?
• "Pursuit-deterrent munitions" (my new favorite phrase :) )

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I really like the idea of "Useful Equipment!" - basically, figure out a point cost, multiply by 3, then you can pull out a piece of gear you didn't state that you had equaling the cost? Am I getting that right?

Honestly, I didn't look at the nuts and bolts of it as closely as that -- it was just more of a catch-all for me as the GM to be able to say, "Oh, right, of course you'd have a crowbar!" or whatever. :)

Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris

This is great stuff. Permission to steal?
...everyone's got Acting, Diplomacy, and Fast-Talk. It seems like being the Face could be one character's specialty, and everyone else could drop it.

No perks?

Are you planning on point-optimizing?

Steal away! I was thinking everyone would have at least 1 point in Acting, Diplomacy, and Fast-Talk from their CIA "Clandestine Service Trainee" program, but having one specialize makes sense. I mostly plowed over perks and trying to point-optimize just to save time (as often is the case, I feel like I'm way behind on game prep!)

Again, really appreciate all the help. These polishes will make the game that much better.

[Randyman]

Post-con ideas for you:

1. Write up the PCs, adventure, etc., possibly beyond what you needed at the con.
2. Join the G+ Pyramid Writers Assistance group (or whatever it's called)
3. Submit the result to Pyramid.

:)

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by acrosome

But it is highly unlikely that a mission like this would be entrusted to a pack of 22 year-olds. A 22 year-old cannot have completed an enlistment in special operations and then SAD training. Very few (still whole) SF guys only do one enlistment, anyway.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure that the average PMO straight out of SAD training is going to have ~ 10+ years of field experience.

Even Mike Spann had 6 years as a USMC Officer before going into SAD. Add in 4 years of college and a year of SAD training and the guy is 29 right out of the gate.

I've met some pretty dense Rangers, but if the guy made it into SAD then IQ9 probably wouldn't cut it.

Exactly. There is a reason these units have a rigorous selection process.

Also, if you check out the 4th Ed book SEALs in Vietnam, the base template for SEALs is DX 13, IQ 13. To me, that is what the GURPS developers think the average, non-cinematic SEAL is going to be like.

As an Army guy I'm inherently biased against Force Recon...

Ditto. Plus it's easy to make fun of Marines, in general.

...and agree that most are at best IQ10. But if they were selected for SAD they might be exceptional. :) So, clearly you have bought into the USMC propaganda.

As much as it pains me to defend the jarheads, I think there is more to this than just USMC propaganda.

Pretty much all of the initial MARSOC guys came from the FR Companies. And MARSOC is no joke.

Plus they have a pretty intensive training pipeline. Again, I don't think all FR Marines are PMO material, but I would bet a higher percentage could pass SAD Selection than what you'd get from the batt-boys.

In your defense the Marines do have a vigorous PR department. But they also like to present the entire Marine Corps as an "elite" force, which the rest of the US Military finds farcical.

Thankfully, it is a notion that is quickly dispelled once you meet your first Marine.

Force Recon is a different animal, though. Nonetheless they are much more like Rangers than like SEALs or Army SFOD Delta.

Agreed. Very different mission than Rangers, and tougher training pipeline, but age, skillsets, and qualities will be similar.

I could be wrong but I suspect that SAD operators are no longer in the US Military and thus shouldn't have Military Rank. Perhaps courtesy rank if retired from the military, but they are now in the CIA as "paramilitary officers," so perhaps Administrative Rank?

They have GS levels, but those are more paygrades than actual GURPS Rank. And your previous military rank is pretty much meaningless once you become a PMO. You could be a former US Army Major in Delta/CAG/ACE, but your team leader used to be a junior petty officer SEAL.

Even then, the DEVGRU guy wouldn't be a staff sergeant- he'd be a petty officer of some sort. (Navy, remember?) But an E6 special operator would be a rather inexperienced one, excepting the Ranger. Their promotions work faster than the rest of the military, so they tend to be rank-heavy. Unless your US Army SF guy was a direct-enlistment 18X he looks particularly odd that way. SF enlisted guys tend to have rank.

In Army SF, your E6s and E7s will fill most of the ranks of an ODA. You'll probably have an E8 as the team daddy, a WO as the Assistant DC, and a Captain as the DC. I know the Navy puts two officers in a SEAL platoon (one O2 and one O3), but I'm not sure about the rest of the ranks. And the DevGru guy, if he started as an enlisted guy was at least an E7 before going SAD.