[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Hmmm... I suppose, but Murlak is not likely to expend another attack, for a -6 to his grapple and stab, just to get a leg grapple to the torso.*

He could do it on two successive turns? I guess he wants the instant gratification. You could rule this is a Dual-Weapon Attack with one hand and one leg. You could also resolve it as one attack, but with both at -3 instead of just one, and split the "one hand and one leg" CP between both targets.

Now, by the rules, your guy needs to do Rapid Strikes, All-Out Attack, or have Extra Attack, which is by far the best ticket to doing all sorts of crazy stuff in one second for grappling, perhaps bar none.

Can he spend CPs from a torso grapple on damage by a knife thrust or slash to the neck?

Absolutely. For grab and smash, if the player can rationalize it, it can be done. Pulling on an arm to knee to the face (not adjacent)? Go for it, easy to visualize.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

He could do it on two successive turns? I guess he wants the instant gratification. You could rule this is a Dual-Weapon Attack with one hand and one leg. You could also resolve it as one attack, but with both at -3 instead of just one, and split the "one hand and one leg" CP between both targets.

He'll already be performing Dual-Weapon Attack to grapple with one hand and stab with the other.

And naturally he needs the instant gratification. Why else have DX 17 and Basic Speed 9.00? :)

A real commando might be content to do sentry removal in 30-120 seconds, but Murlak needs to be able to do a flip over an aware foe, grab him while driving his knife home and then release the falling body in order to draw his saber to parry another attacker.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Now, by the rules, your guy needs to do Rapid Strikes, All-Out Attack, or have Extra Attack, which is by far the best ticket to doing all sorts of crazy stuff in one second for grappling, perhaps bar none.

When there is the opportunity to All-Out Attack while Backstabbing, I expect the fairly low-ST Murlak will be using All-Out Attack (Strong) to compensate.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Absolutely. For grab and smash, if the player can rationalize it, it can be done. Pulling on an arm to knee to the face (not adjacent)? Go for it, easy to visualize.

Cool. I looked for an explicit note to that effect in TG, but couldn't find one. Since the Grab and Smash! section of TG references MA on this, I wasn't sure if the restrictions from MA still applied.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

He'll already be performing Dual-Weapon Attack . . . When there is the opportunity to All-Out Attack while Backstabbing, I expect the fairly low-ST Murlak will be using All-Out Attack (Strong) to compensate.

So he's making his choice. I'd do Committed Attack (Strong) to add to the CP for both grapple and stab, then.

Cool. I looked for an explicit note to that effect in TG, but couldn't find one. Since the Grab and Smash! section of TG references MA on this, I wasn't sure if the restrictions from MA still applied.

They're supposed to be fully referenced, and I see what you're referring to: "If the grapple works and you hit the grappled location
with a thrusting attack, your strike gets the damage bonus"

Italics added.

I was just discussing this with Peter for various and nefarious reasons, and he was the origin of the "grab head, knee torso, or grab arm, smash face, or grab torso, break knee" examples (with which I heartily agree).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

They're supposed to be fully referenced, and I see what you're referring to: "If the grapple works and you hit the grappled location
with a thrusting attack, your strike gets the damage bonus"

Italics added.

I was just discussing this with Peter for various and nefarious reasons, and he was the origin of the "grab head, knee torso, or grab arm, smash face, or grab torso, break knee" examples (with which I heartily agree).

I agree with Peter as well and considered the MA restriction on location too strict. Are you allowed to add some sort of note to TG errata about this?

What I am not sure about, however, is whether CPs can be spent to add to damage on a swung attack. In MA, only thrusting attacks can get the bonus, but I can easily visualise spending CPs from a head, torso or neck grapple to add to damage from a throat-cutting, for example.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I agree with Peter as well and considered the MA restriction on location too strict. Are you allowed to add some sort of note to TG errata about this?

It's not errata. It's "I'd do this differently."

What I am not sure about, however, is whether CPs can be spent to add to damage on a swung attack. In MA, only thrusting attacks can get the bonus, but I can easily visualise spending CPs from a head, torso or neck grapple to add to damage from a throat-cutting, for example.

Throat cutting should not do swing damage in close combat. I'd leave the restriction at thrust.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Throat cutting should not do swing damage in close combat. I'd leave the restriction at thrust.

This has the consequence that most weapons can't do a cutting grab and smash without taking the Tip Slash penalties.

Unless one adds another attack option for close blade use.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It's not errata. It's "I'd do this differently."

When the writer would do things differently than the published text, isn't that a case where changing the published text to support the prefered rules of the author makes sense?

[Icelander]

While running a test fight between Mickey and a young stone giant, I discovered that I still didn't know how the maximum CP rule works.

Are you limited by your whole body ST, regardless of what limbs you are using to grapple that specific opponent, or are you limited by the Grip ST of the limbs you have on the opponent?

That is, if you've grappled with two hands and inflicted CPs up to your Trained ST, does it make any difference to add legs to the grapple?

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Icelander

While running a test fight between Mickey and a young stone giant, I discovered that I still didn't know how the maximum CP rule works.

Are you limited by your whole body ST, regardless of what limbs you are using to grapple that specific opponent, or are you limited by the Grip ST of the limbs you have on the opponent?

That is, if you've grappled with two hands and inflicted CPs up to your Trained ST, does it make any difference to add legs to the grapple?

You know, I always conflated Grip ST with Trained ST and so would have answered this with "Yes, adding the leg increases your Grip ST and thus your maximum CP".... but that isnt what it says on p.6, so that might be wrong!

If so, Ive been doing it wrong, sadly.

[DouglasCole]

The train strength limit on control points is a switch to allow and encourage week fighters who might happen to be very skilled to not be able to rack up monster point totals against foes that can pick them up and throw them like a ping-pong ball. If game masters want to alter the total by the 20% for legs, that's fine. Is designed to be a rule of thumb.