Annihilation

[Gamer234]

Annihilation: Short version...remove any 1 card from the game. If the card (you are annihilating) had just been played, its effects are cancelled immediately.

Okay, here is the chain of events...In a 5-handed game, Player A is in combat against a single creature and is being helped by Player B. A creature is Wandered in and the duo is losing. Player B plays "It's Dead" killing the creature and leaving its treasure behind. Those 2 cards are put aside to resolve after combat is over. Another creature is Wandered in. Player B plays the Potion of Disbelief on one of the 2 remaining creatures, putting those aside as well. The other 3 players conference frantically and one of them plays annihilation on the "It's dead" card, and claims that the killed monster is put back into combat. A&B bump themselves up some more and are finally ready to win the combat when Friendly is played. The Duo happily split up 13 treasure cards (they were big monsters with some enhancers that are irrelevant to the issue) and a Fairy treasure.

My issue is this:

Since the "It's Dead" card was the first one used and set aside, by the time it was Annihilated, its effect wouldn't be cancelled, thus the monster it killed should still be dead. As the ultimate result wouldn't have been changed, and 2 of the newer players (who were on the interferring side) might've felt hosed by fast-talk, I didn't bring it up. Am I right though?

[Andrew Hackard]

If Annihilation had been played immediately after Dead, that card's effects would not have occurred. Since other cards were played in the interim, however, Annihilating Dead would not reverse its effects. (Annihilating the monster, on the other hand, would remove its levels and Treasures from the bounty, since the combat was not yet concluded.)

[u_f_o]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

Annihilating the monster, on the other hand, would remove its levels and Treasures from the bounty, since the combat was not yet concluded.

Can you clarify this? There you mean monster under effect of "It's Dead" or another monster that was wandered into the combat later?
If I can annihilate the monster that is Dead to prevent player to take its Treasures, what is the difference between annihilating monster charmed by Wizard (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=178264 - if this post is not too ancient for reference)?

[Clipper]

I agree with your reasoning, u_f_o. This does seem to need clarification.

Either we should consider Dead and the monster card to be discarded, hence they are not in play and they cannot be Annihilated after other cards have been played; or we consider both to be in play, but then it would make sense for the Dead monster to return to life when Dead is removed, as the monster is still in play without anything modifying it.

Andrew's rulings only seem to make sense if Dead is considered in play and the monster is considered discarded. I could certainly be missing something, though.

[Andrew Hackard]

Dead is not a monster enhancer; it is an immediate effect. It and the associated monster would be discarded immediately if you didn't need to keep it there to remind you that the monster you play it on has been killed (and you need to keep the monster there so you remember how much Treasure it has).

So this is a weird corner case in which the cards are neither discarded nor still in play, just like a Curse that is left on the table to remind you to take a penalty at some future time, for instance Change Sex. Annihilation cannot be played on Dead after the fact because Dead is not "in play" in the sense that Annihilation requires.

[Clipper]

And that means we can't annihilate the monster after Dead has resolved, right? That was the issue that led to my earlier counterargument.

[Bearget]

New player/poster here, so I apologize if I should have started a new thread rather than bumping this one, but I am also hoping for some clarification here. Andrew's original response asserts that Annihilation can be played on the monster to prevent level/treasure gains, but his follow-up appears to agree with Clipper's assessment that neither Dead nor the monster on whom Dead has been played are still considered "in play" after Dead has been resolved, so that neither is a valid target for Annihilation.

This is, of course, assuming the situation described in the OP, in which other cards had been played in the interim. I realize that Annihilation could be used to counter Dead if the former were played as a response to the latter. However, even in that case, you still wouldn't be able to use Annihilation on the monster itself, correct? The only time you could target the monster itself would be before Dead had been played?

[MIB 9966]

Munchkin is reasonably simple in play, so if you go by the general rule that cards that are played have an immediate effect unless a card is played that explicitly cancels or specifically affects that just played card.

In this case, Annihilation can only affect the Dead card being played, otherwise it must wait until Dead is resolved and the monster and Dead cards are no longer valid targets for Annihilation.

Most interactions can be easily resolved by remembering that you can only respond to a card play by playing a card that affects the specifc card being played. Anything else will have to wait until the card play is resolved first.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by Bearget

New player/poster here, so I apologize if I should have started a new thread rather than bumping this one, but I am also hoping for some clarification here. Andrew's original response asserts. . .

You're asking a follow up question to a response, which is the perfect time to ask a question in a thread, rather than creating a new one. Kudos!

[Bearget]

I also ordered my very own Munchkin sets last night! Do I get bonus kudos for that? More importantly, do kudos provide in-game benefits?