Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

*shrug*

Given how gritty the various stories are, elements in them are such points as 'non-lethal' subdual methods being either less than effective or very dangerous; medical skills having inter-species defaults; a clear distinction between Combat Sport and Combat skills, not to mention Brawling vs. Boxing or Karate; a wealth of different academic skills existing, interdefaulting or not; and other nods to realism which are easily modelled in GURPS, less easily in a more abstract system.

One of the conceits of the Discworld is that the stories are often founded on taking fantastic tropes or situations and then not abstracting away little details of realism as is done in simplistic fantasy stories, and by extension RPGs designed to emulate such stories.

This means that my first thought for emulating Discoworld stories is having a fairly robust system for simulating something much closer to reality than BESM, Toon or pretty much any simple RPG I've seen. Of course, it needn't be GURPS, but a purpose designed system for Discworld wouldn't necessarily be any simpler than GURPS, at least not if the stand-alone product reproduces only the parts of GURPS that are necessary for the setting.

Well I'd argue that any grittiness or realism is still very much subjugated by the narrative requirements and character tropes involved. i'd also argue that the subversion of genre troupes is done for comic or dramatic effect rather as an appeal to realism.

Also Toon and BESM really aren't that close. More over the range of available RPGs really isn't just GURPS, BESM and Toon.

Anyway I guess we can agree to differ on this one

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Well I'd argue that any grittiness or realism is still very much subjugated by the narrative requirements and character tropes involved. i'd also argue that the subversion of genre troupes is done for comic or dramatic effect rather as an appeal to realism.

I'll agree that especially iconic characters and/or dramatic/comic effects trump realism in the Discworld, but that's because they effectively have/grant powers, in GURPS terms. Sam Vimes can defeat supernatural manifestations of darkness with his supernatural Sam Vimes morality, keeping watch on the darkness inside him. Narrativum is a real thing there and grants you powers according to a Power Modifier and everything.

It is, however, nowhere near infallible and, in fact, manipulating narratives is a magical path to power fraught with danger. So it fits much better into a rules set where the default is that dangerous things have harsh consequences unless a supernatural effect intervenes than it would into a system where all outcomes are narrative and reality is plastic.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Also Toon and BESM really aren't that close. More over the range of available RPGs really isn't just GURPS, BESM and Toon.

Certainly not. But I've found games like the SAGA system, d20/D&D or Mutants and Mastermind to be more complex than GURPS, in that there are more exclusive gamist mechanisms which don't correspond to anything benchmarked in reality and are thus not easy to understand for someone without the frame of reference provided by a thorough grounding in the game system.

The most complex game system I've used is AD&D 2nd edition with all the Player's Option books in play. The only systems I know which are simpler than GURPS to grasp for a newcomer are Kobolds Ate Your Baby, BESM, Toon and the one I always forget what is called but is really simple.... damn it! No, it's gone.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Anyway I guess we can agree to differ on this one

Yes, but what fun would that be? How would you then become convinced that not only can GURPS do GURPS Discworld, it is the best system I have yet seen to play Discworld in? :)

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Kromm

As far as game engines go, I don't see another generic engine being better or worse than GURPS for Pratchett's work. In many ways, GURPS is a good match, as it's capable of the mad, kitchen-sink, gonzo stuff that shows up on the Disc. It doesn't force you to choose a genre first, which many other generic engines do; this is crucial, as Discworld isn't pure fantasy, but a weird mix of genres up to and including steampunk of late. The two also have a similar sense of humor (indeed, this helps to explain why SJ and Pterry get along!).

Can GURPS ideally showcase Discworld without the tools showing? That is a challenge! It's why we're publishing the Discworld Roleplaying Game and not GURPS Discworld, and why the upcoming edition is truly integrated and self-contained, not just a worldbook with a copy of GURPS Lite in the back. That approach was a lot of work for us, though, and it remains to be seen whether the expense and trouble, plus the licensing costs, will pay off. If the new edition is a success and brings new players to GURPS, we'll have a direction in which to move.

Disclaimer: I was in the playtest for the Discworld Roleplaying Game, and was really impressed with it. IMHO, Phil Masters and SJGames stood to the challenge and emerged victorious. I really hope that you guys make it pay off, and it's IMHO the best introductory book to GURPS I have ever seen. There is only one other system that I could consider for the disc, and it's Fate, because Fate is a system built for modeling fiction like the Discworld. Fate is the perfect complement to GURPS, because while GURPS piggybacks on the rules of physics, Fate does so on Narrativium.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The most complex game system I've used is AD&D 2nd edition with all the Player's Option books in play. The only systems I know which are simpler than GURPS to grasp for a newcomer are Kobolds Ate Your Baby, BESM, Toon and the one I always forget what is called but is really simple.... damn it! No, it's gone.

Tunnels and Trolls was to my memory the simplest fun fantasy system.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Disclaimer: I was in the playtest for the Discworld Roleplaying Game, and was really impressed with it. IMHO, Phil Masters and SJGames stood to the challenge and emerged victorious. I really hope that you guys make it pay off, and it's IMHO the best introductory book to GURPS I have ever seen. There is only one other system that I could consider for the disc, and it's Fate, because Fate is a system built for modeling fiction like the Discworld. Fate is the perfect complement to GURPS, because while GURPS piggybacks on the rules of physics, Fate does so on Narrativium.

I was going to say FATE! (I tend to shy away from doing so because I'm not a massive fan, and "what about FATE" was the chorus for pretty much any problem for a while)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I was going to say FATE! (I tend to shy away from doing so because I'm not a massive fan, and "what about FATE" was the chorus for pretty much any problem for a while)

Leonard Balsera and I have a good discussion about how GURPS and Fate compliment each other in my interview with him.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Leonard Balsera and I have a good discussion about how GURPS and Fate compliment each other in my interview with him.

What I find interesting is that these are the two RPGs I actually play. When people act surprised that I – the best-known GURPS geek – can actually like both, I am surprised. The differences are legion, but I see a lot in common between de facto point-based, skill-driven systems intended to cover any and all genres using a single rules set.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Kromm

What I find interesting is that these are the two RPGs I actually play. When people act surprised that I – the best-known GURPS geek – can actually like both, I am surprised. The differences are legion, but I see a lot in common between de facto point-based, skill-driven systems intended to cover any and all genres using a single rules set.

Anyone surprised by people liking both GURPS and Fate isn't paying attention. :)

The overlap between the two fanbases is huge -- I talk to people on the FateRPG-List all the time who I know from the forums. Hell, our coworker (Leonard Balsera) is the chief architect behind the latest edition of Fate. As you say, the two systems have at least as many similarities as they have differences. If I had infinite free time, I'd love to combine the best of both worlds, stealing liberally from what GURPS does well (flexible character creation, good combat mechanics, attribute-based skills, etc.) and what Fate does well (aspects in place of disadvantages, Fate Points to drive the story, etc.) -- plus a few tasty morsels from other systems -- and create the Ultimate RPG System Of Perfection.

(Wait, I'm not 15 anymore. Am I still supposed to have this urge?)

[mook]

I am a huge fan of GURPS Power-Ups 5: Impulse Buys precisely because it feels like a nice bridge between my two favorite RPGs (which is still odd to say, because for a decade or so I only had one favorite).

Even before that came out, we'd been using "Fate Points" in our GURPS games to great effect. Nice to hear there's so much overlapping GURPS/Fate love out there!

Seems rude to post and not at least comment on the OP, but I'm afraid I don't have much more than "having a way to assemble a custom campaign-by-campaign GURPS rules-set digitally would be awesome, but seems pretty unlikely."

[Dammann]

Storyscape is supposed to be something sort of like the app that is being discussed here, with the basic flaw that it doesn't use GURPS rules. Still, Robin Laws wrote the rules, so there is reason for optimism.