Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by fartrader

I doubt it. There's little chance of a non-gamer becoming a gamer outside of their circle of friends, in my experience. Now, if we want to talk about getting an existing gamer that has never given GURPS a try before, the above could draw a couple of folks, though there are likely better ways to draw such people.

I don't know. I will offer one annecdote. I recently watched the community episode dealing with Dungeons and Dragons with my Girl Friend. At the end of it she asked if that was more or less accurately what the game was, and I said yes. I can tell you I would never have brought it up with her otherwise.

I don't have a game she can join, but when we are talking about probably less than 10,000 regular GURPS players getting one or 2 new ones is a significant success.

Another thing which I think has already been alluded to by someone else is getting more GURPS authors via Pyramid.

If people are writing articles they are showing them to friends even if only to help edit them. Once again we are talking here about 1s and 2s of new players.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Doubts about such an initiative stem not from technology (suitable tech exists) or manpower (we have talented staff), but from market size. This sort of thing would be expensive to implement, and so would only make sense if sales of the revamped distribution were as close to guaranteed as sales can get. Among other things, that would mean gamers rebuying old content in the new model . . . we couldn't pay for such extensive work exclusively with revenues earned on new product going forward. In short, demand would have to precede the project. Doing the work and hoping that it draws a big audience willing to pay for it would be an unacceptable risk.

Would the risk be mitigated somewhat, if several companies got together for the project? Perhaps SJ Games with GURPS, teaming up with Atlas Games with their Ars Magica?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Would the risk be mitigated somewhat, if several companies got together for the project? Perhaps SJ Games with GURPS, teaming up with Atlas Games with their Ars Magica?

The trouble is the extra resources devoted to publishing. And selling that material, some of which to people who already have ti. How would adding toher companies and different products help that?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Doubts about such an initiative stem not from technology (suitable tech exists) or manpower (we have talented staff), but from market size. This sort of thing would be expensive to implement, and so would only make sense if sales of the revamped distribution were as close to guaranteed as sales can get. Among other things, that would mean gamers rebuying old content in the new model . . . we couldn't pay for such extensive work exclusively with revenues earned on new product going forward. In short, demand would have to precede the project. Doing the work and hoping that it draws a big audience willing to pay for it would be an unacceptable risk.

The problem is given the intrinsic vagaries of the hobby I don't think you could have any idea what the uptake of this service would be until you put it in place.

More over if this was primarily going to be a tool for encouraging new players, because you'd be the first in the industry (an industry who's potential customers aren't reliant on you, so don't or won't need this), you'd have to pretty much make it free or next to free.

Originally Posted by korbeau

We increase it with other media; books (novels are good ones), television (comics, series, movies...), games (video games, cards, dices... sjgames are good in this category!)

The problem is it takes money to makes money... Can it be possible to expend the Gurps line with what SJgames already have? I could easely see a "Infinite Worlds Munchkins" card set who can be grab the munchkin fan to be curious about the gurps line (or Yrth Munchkin...). One step at a time

The problem GURPS has with this is there is no GURPS IP that can cross media.

What's a GURPS novel? A GURPS Television series. You could do GURPS/Munchkin tie ins, but ultimately they are munchkin products not GURPS.

GURPS as an IP is a games system that supports a wide range of genres and is pretty heavily weighted towards detail. Your problem is that means nothing to anyone who is not already a role player, and it could be a negative as much as a positive for those who can attach meaning to that sentence. The features and distinctive qualities of GURPS are fundamentally tied to the roleplaying process and so don't really translate outside of roleplaying.

You could theoretically have IW or Banestorm cross media products, but to be frank even if you got to that point there nothing intrinsically GURPS about either of them, beyond if you google both you get the link.

I.e. I can play IW or Banestorm with out playing GURPS (and while that's true in theory of any setting and its system, by its very nature the genericness of GURPS means they are less tied together than most).

Moreover if you look at the current munchkin products that tie into other specific IP it's munchkin conan and munchkin cthulhu. Both instances of Munchkin benefiting from other established IP's not the other way round.

There have been tie in projects that were driven by RPG IP but not many have been successful. The most successful that I can think of were the TSR novels from the 80's & 90's and those were mainly driven by the initial success of the Dragonlance trilogy.

Given the size of the RPG world in relation to the wider one, it tends to be the other way round, outside IP drive RPGs products.

[korbeau]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

There have been tie in projects that were driven by RPG IP but not many have been successful. The most successful that I can think of were the TSR novels from the 80's & 90's and those were mainly driven by the initial success of the Dragonlance trilogy.

We don't remember of D&D for their rules set - we remember it for their settings. I play Call of Cthulhu not for the system but for the setting (they adapt the system for the setting... Gurps do it differently).

It was a good move to grab something popular and adapt it but making a conversion of another RPG is not as popular. Why i'll play Gurps Vampire when I can play Vampire directly?

Having some exclusivity (Star Trek, Hellboy or Vorkosigan) is good but something's missing. Publicity? Visibility? Popularity of the setting?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by korbeau

We don't remember of D&D for their rules set - we remember it for their settings. I play Call of Cthulhu not for the system but for the setting (they adapt the system for the setting... Gurps do it differently).

It was a good move to grab something popular and adapt it but making a conversion of another RPG is not as popular. Why i'll play Gurps Vampire when I can play Vampire directly?

Having some exclusivity (Star Trek, Hellboy or Vorkosigan) is good but something's missing. Publicity? Visibility? Popularity of the setting?

Not sure about (A)D&D, but then it was the daddy for a while and produced plenty of non setting (i.e system only) specific stuff. There's also the conflicting view points about producing 5+ official settings. Are you providing something for everyone or competing with yourself (or of course a mix of both).

The problem with officially converting RPG settings to your own system is that it requires roleplayers who like Company A's setting but Company B's system enough to buy product. Again your target audience is automatically a sub division of a wider audience.

That said I'd say the GURPS WOD conversions were actually pretty successful* because there was pretty clear difference between the systems in question so the appeal was accordingly broad.

WW:Mage was notoriously incoherent, and a classic example of a fantastic setting being held back by its system.

*In that I think they were good, adding something to the hobby, I have no idea how well they sold.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by korbeau

Having some exclusivity (Star Trek, Hellboy or Vorkosigan) is good but something's missing. Publicity? Visibility? Popularity of the setting?

Or maybe truly ready to play stuff. See the last pages of the thread Why I've stepped away from GURPS? for that topic...

I can't say for all those bookss, but for the first edition of Discworld, there is no ready to play scenario. And useful generic NPCs with full stats are neither given. So, before playing [B]Discworld, a newcomer will have quite a lot of work to do... Which is not really encouraging.

Other games, by other publishers, almost always give one ready to play adventure with their Basic Set. At minimum.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Or maybe truly ready to play stuff. See the last pages of the thread Why I've stepped away from GURPS? for that topic...

I can't say for all those bookss, but for the first edition of Discworld, there is no ready to play scenario. And useful generic NPCs with full stats are neither given. So, before playing [B]Discworld, a newcomer will have quite a lot of work to do... Which is not really encouraging.

Other games, by other publishers, almost always give one ready to play adventure with their Basic Set. At minimum.

As a tangent, for me Discworld and GURPS are about as incongruous a pairing as I can imagine in the Hobby.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by fartrader

I doubt it. There's little chance of a non-gamer becoming a gamer outside of their circle of friends, in my experience. Now, if we want to talk about getting an existing gamer that has never given GURPS a try before, the above could draw a couple of folks, though there are likely better ways to draw such people.

The catch: The pen-and-paper RPG hobby is old enough that the majority of participants have chosen their poison . . . it has "frozen out" into sects and cliques with strong preferences. Existing gamers who've decided against generic or point-build or roll-under or d6-based systems are unlikely to revisit those decisions. Thus, we need to grab people entering the hobby – folks who have yet to develop such prejudices. And if we're going to do that, we want GURPS to be the entry point; letting people come to GURPS via another system is far from optimal, as a gamer's first system tends to color all future expectations, and the most likely first system is the one with the biggest marketing budget, which is nothing like GURPS.

However, I agree that media properties aren't the way to go for a generic system. High-profile fiction is a great selling point for a dedicated game built around it, with all of its mechanics, terminology, and examples customized to that property. Do that with a generic system, though, and you don't seem generic . . . and while you can customize it to a specific property each time, that won't provide a general tool kit. We're in the business of selling the tool kit. When there are no takers for tool kits, GURPS will have run its course, as providing the tools is and has always been its mission.

My own feeling is that in our current age, the way to raise the system's profile is to make it more computer-friendly. I know that a lot of old-time GURPS fans would hate to see qualitative rules, judgment calls, and other "fuzzy" concepts go away. However, those things are in many ways what's holding back the game. Though common complaints about GURPS cite its mathematical complexity, the essence of those complaints lurks elsewhere, in the fact that the customer must do so much work . . . Tools are fine, but these tools are hand tools, and not amenable to industrial automation.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

The problem GURPS has with this is there is no GURPS IP that can cross media.

GURPS as an IP is a games system that supports a wide range of genres and is pretty heavily weighted towards detail.

This gets at what I said in my previous post; namely, that we're selling the tools. SJ created a generic, universal system because he was tired of single-genre, single-setting games tied to particular sets of assumptions; which is to say, SJ created a tool kit, and that's what SJ Games wants to sell. In the past, we've adapted IPs in order to showcase how flexible GURPS is, but those adaptations have never enjoyed the success of the core system. And with good reason: The adaptations are "close enough," not optimal; showcasing the rules has a fidelity cost for the setting, and setting fans won't stay with a game that doesn't get their favorite IP right to within almost absurdly tight tolerances.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

As a tangent, for me Discworld and GURPS are about as incongruous a pairing as I can imagine in the Hobby.

As far as game engines go, I don't see another generic engine being better or worse than GURPS for Pratchett's work. In many ways, GURPS is a good match, as it's capable of the mad, kitchen-sink, gonzo stuff that shows up on the Disc. It doesn't force you to choose a genre first, which many other generic engines do; this is crucial, as Discworld isn't pure fantasy, but a weird mix of genres up to and including steampunk of late. The two also have a similar sense of humor (indeed, this helps to explain why SJ and Pterry get along!).

Can GURPS ideally showcase Discworld without the tools showing? That is a challenge! It's why we're publishing the Discworld Roleplaying Game and not GURPS Discworld, and why the upcoming edition is truly integrated and self-contained, not just a worldbook with a copy of GURPS Lite in the back. That approach was a lot of work for us, though, and it remains to be seen whether the expense and trouble, plus the licensing costs, will pay off. If the new edition is a success and brings new players to GURPS, we'll have a direction in which to move.