Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database

[Raekai]

That's right. A new year, a new thread about a revised fourth edition, a new fifth edition, or some kind of modular supplement, or even funding the technology to implant all GURPS rules directly into our brains! I'd like to take the moment to highlight some ideas that I think are great, but also some points to take into consideration.

Originally Posted by hackbarth

What I would like:

To print my own GURPS Basic Set, with only the portions that will be relevant for the next campaign that'll GM. Only low-TL stuff plus magic for fantasy, only high-TL stuff plus ultra-tech for SF. Modified for technological path or magic systems of the settings.

So that I can take a guide like Dungeon Fantasy or Action, and turn it in my own specialized RPG using GURPS rules in a single book.

All that and Cheap. Waiting for the next TL to roll out.

Originally Posted by cmdicely

IMO, the idea here is fundamentally flawed. Even though much GURPS content is now available electronically, its still a pen and paper RPG. Making it an online-access-dependent system on a Web 2.0/Cloud/SaaS model without altering the content would be, to me, an insane step.

If you are going to build a game system product that is dependent on network access (and, hence, on computing resource), you shouldn't just take a pen & paper RPG and repackage it, you should build a system that leverages computing resources to enhance gameplay, as well as to organize content.

Originally Posted by Kromm

That is, unfortunately, a perpetually unrealizable goal. There's no reason to believe that those who didn't switch from 1st to 2nd, 1st and 2nd to 3rd, or 1st through 3rd to 4th would jump from 1st through 4th to 5th. People who like an edition tend to stick with it, and as long as they accept "no new support" as a condition of doing so, that's cool. And newcomers might want their new edition, but keeping up with that is literally an impossible task.

What motivates a 5th edition is unlikely to be any kind of failing (real or perceived) in the 4th – or the 1st through 3rd – nor is it likely to be fan pressure. Most likely, if it happens, it will be tied to moving to new media. Rules may very well remain entirely unchanged, but simply be better-integrated and more easily found thanks to technology. We'll see (or not) . . .

Originally Posted by Rasputin

1) Not officially, though there always threads suggesting it, like the other guy said. I think Kromm said that if the current state of the market continues, there won't be a 5e. If there is, the logical time is no earlier than 2020 (giving it at least a lifespan as long as 3e), and the main media won't be dead trees or electronic imitations thereof, but instead some sort of updateable app.
2) No, though it wouldn't irk me too much if done just right. The current GURPS problems are with presentation, not with missing options in Basic. There really should be full-game folders for Dungeon Fantasy and Space Opera.
3) Characters would ditch Combat Lite and add a couple pages of equipment, change the weapon and armor weights to match Low-Tech, maybe add a few techniques and some common modifiers to advantages/disadvantages. Actually, I know some techniques to add, and those are the Acrobatics ones from Compendium II. Campaigns would ditch Infinite Worlds and add computer rules from Ultra-Tech, trap rules from Dungeon Fantasy, chase rules from Action, Hiking rules from High-Tech, Telegraphic Attack from Martial Arts. The animals would be in the new Bestiary format that is in Dungeon Fantasy and have their attacks specified, and there would be a few common foes, like giant spiders and insane robots (see Savage Worlds Deluxe for a good list). There would be more example poisons, and some example diseases from Compendium II. Social skill rules would be clarified per Social Engineering. The Combat Lite and the Infinite Worlds chapters would be bonuses in the PDF version, and be free downloads otherwise.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The rules for Complementary Skill Rolls. It was a pretty stupid oversight not to create something like that during the creation of 4E. Hero System has had a CSR rule for a very long time, and it's a really obvious kind of general rule to have.

I don't like the idea of a Revised 4th Edition, but a 4th Edition Upgrade, as a complementary volume that you buy to use with your existing 4th Edition core books, is starting to make somse sense.

Originally Posted by Mathulhu

The game does not need a new version or revision but there are some things that need to be done.

Some kind of compilation of all the rules, not a reprinting just a list of where to find useful rules. There are a lot of gems hidden in odd books.

That would go a long way towards helping the people who are overwhelmed by the number of optional rules.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Given that the appendix added to the Basic Set, Third Edition Revised – and ultimately, all of Compendium I and II – came to be seen as "required," even though SJ Games didn't force them down throats, it stands to reason that any addendum or compendium for the Basic Set, Fourth Edition would come to be seen as "required." As we already get a lot of flak for how large the Basic Set, Fourth Edition is, I think that if we did have a serious internal discussion, we would conclude that an intermediate edition would be suicidally bad. At 576 pages plus appendices and/or compendia, the game would be lambasted by the hobby and summarily executed.

Ultimately, I think that a lot of "missing" content is actually out there in either the Basic Set, Fourth Edition or a PDF. Current thinking at SJ Games is to sell add-on content via PDFs on e23, and I somewhat doubt that we would steal the thunder from existing publications by republishing key rules in a collection. Considering those rules for a future full edition – in the 2020s, as others have said – is a whole other issue. That is very likely what we would do, assuming there is a 5e someday.

I think all of these ideas together would be neat. I really do think that GURPS does call for some kind of revision or update in a way. To make that happen, I think that GURPS would have to step away from both books and pdfs. Like mentioned several times, there could be some kind of database. And I really love the above idea of being able to essentially piece together your own book out of it. I know that's technically possible to do right now, but formatting a copy-paste of the specific rules you want takes too long and is ultimately extremely messy. Furthermore, there are some things that certainly call for an update. A lot of key rules are added in various Pyramid issues. I'm not suggesting we steal Pyramid's thunder. I'm suggesting something like... You would be going through the database looking for a rule and it would say where that rule is available. There are so many cool things out there, but, honestly, the biggest problem for me is not knowing where to look. Then, even if I did have an unlimited budget, I could spend hours upon hours picking through chapters and chapters of material to find a single rule which would have been useful to have in the Basic Set.

Furthermore, I suggest these things because I love GURPS, and I want others to love it too. I really do think that having a database with possible preset rulesets (think GURPS Lite and a GURPS Not-Quite-As-Lite) would be a great way to get people to shut up about how complicated GURPS is (including myself). I'd love to be able to easily and conveniently compile all of the info that I need across various books into a single campaign-specific rulebook.

How to make it work? How to price something like that? Well, I'm not entirely sure. I might be smart, but I don't exactly have the brains for that. I'm an abstract thinker. Now I'd love to see some serious discussion and ideas. I might be freshly an adult, but if someone hired me to get working on this, you can bet your best dice that I would try.

Here's to another year of GURPS, and I wish you all the best new year!

[gilbertocarlos]

I've kinda of already remade GURPS with so many house-rules I have.

[namada]

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[Varyon]

Originally Posted by fartrader

Others mention making the game a database-driven app, generating your own customized GURPS pdf/book for whatever you happen to run. That would be neat and all in theory, but a lot of gamers I know (including myself) still play TTRPG's because they don't require technology. They like physical books. They like physical dice. They like the fact that when the power goes out, they can plug a light in the generator and play a game. If GURPS were dependent on the net or an app, they'd be stuck playing something else, which I admit, isn't that big of a deal (after all, how often are we really without power nowadays?). Overall, I might be able to get behind this, if done right, but I still hate reading pdf's on tablets and prefer physical books, so printing all these custom books would get ridiculously expensive pretty damn quick, likely meaning I'd just go play a different system altogether. Therefore, I'm still largely a "no" to this idea as well, until I have a device where reading pdf's isn't such a pain anyhow, and at this rate, I'm expecting that to be 2020 at the earliest.

I'm also rather fond of physical books, although the low, low cost of PDF's certainly makes me like them quite a bit as well.

The idea of a "Build your own GURPS!" product would be awesome, although I'd imagine it would be very difficult to pull off. I'd imagine the ideal situation would be to have a Basic Set that has a lot of the options/rules/equipment already in it, then release modules - comparable to all the additional books we have now, so you'd have a Low Tech Module, High Tech Module, Tactical Shooting Module, etc. - that contained additional options/rules/equipment. Possibly make it possible for users to also build modules (for houserules).

A solution might be to have each Module actually have a physical book, for those who prefer that. Purchasing the book would be more expensive than the module (printing costs and all that), but perhaps could come with the module for free.

[korbeau]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The idea of a "Build your own GURPS!" product would be awesome,

1000% agree with that. I already doing it - When I start a new campaign, I print the pages i'll need for THAT specific campaign with rules and setting and all of what I know i'll use. When the campaign's over, I bind the characters sheet, the campaign and the rule, making a "homemade setting book" and I burn all the files i've use with maptool.

The problem is sometime, the rule is only on a box and I must print ALL the page for only 2 or 3 lines. All the Gurps book is on PDF format. I love physical book but with Gurps, I don't have this - they give me PDF. So I print it.

Having a software where I can "pick" the complete rule and be able to print it in a clear and beautiful format... without cut and paste.. would be EPIC!

[johndallman]

When Kromm made his posting about moving to new technology, I started to work out the requirements for an electronic publishing format that could do the job. You want:

To be able to integrate new and optional bits of rules, at least to the extent of adding cross-references into existing rules, and preferably merging them in-line. That says goodbye to page-based layout and PDF.

Have things conditionally present or not, according to user-selectable options, sets of which form things like "The DF ruleset" or "The Lite ruleset plus firearms rules and Old West equipment lists." Again, PDF is history at this point.

Have indexes, tables of contents and so on formed automatically.

Have ways of handing illustrations and sophisticated tables.

Have either a viewing app, or a tool that extracts a ruleset into a viewing format.

Have an editing app so that people can write their own house rules into their collection, and share them with each other.

Works on Windows, Mac, Linus, iOS, and Android, for today's market.

Really robust and reliable, and very cheap or free for the end-user parts.

Now, none of this is impossible, but I could not find anything in existence that could do the job. There are things that could do part of it, and it's possible to form ideas of how to go about it. If such software existed, it would have a lot of uses apart from RPGs - but RPGs are a pretty demanding usage case.

If someone wants to start writing it (there's no reason to assume SJG would be interested, but it would probably find other uses) PM me and you're welcome to my technical notes. It'll be a big job: it frankly looks suitable for someone who wants to start a free software project on the scale of Python or Perl. 2020 is a plausible target date for it to be ready for serious usage.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I started to work out the requirements for an electronic publishing format that could do the job. You want:

A few more things:

Mustn't make translation into different languages intrinsically harder.

Mustn't use technology with patent or export-control issues, and mustn't require that all the content in it is free.

Needs to support optional encryption for some or all content for "unlocking", which will probably mean that it can be used for DRM'd content.

[munin]

Originally Posted by johndallman

… I could not find anything in existence that could do the job. …

You're using one right now: a web server which builds pages from a database. It could be an actual server on the web, or there are database and server packages which can be rolled into apps and software for specific platforms.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by munin

You're using one right now: a web server which builds pages from a database. It could be an actual server on the web, or there are database and server packages which can be rolled into apps and software for specific platforms.

A few problems with that:

It doesn't give you the organisation scheme: that has to be devised, and is not trivial.

Supporting a lot of different databases and servers on different platforms and getting them to behave consistently is not trivial either.

[namada]

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