Ambush attacker is surprised?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by The Benj

The "Surprise" rules are pretty clear on what happens when you're surprised and the difference between total and partial surprise, but are quiet on exactly HOW you achieve surprise.

I don't follow. If it's possible to have partial surprise, the rules seem pretty clear - it's a 1d roll, with modifiers as listed under Partial Surprise. I use this at least once a session, so I'm not seeing where it doesn't cover the "how."

[Tema69]

Originally Posted by benz72

Not really my area, but can anyone with foot patrol experience who has set up (or survived) an ambush comment on this idea.

In the search for a logical interpretation of the defender beating the attacker despite the bonus odds I thought about a situation like this...
defender moves into / towards ambush mark but for some reason attacker is unprepared to execute in a coordinated manner. e.g. Pvt. Smit gets buck fever and squeezes one off early, or Sgt Jones happened to have taken that moment to be off the overlook to fertilize a tree and didn't give the signal on time, or whatever.

That seems like a failed Soldier roll from the troops, or even a failed tactics/strategy roll from the commander when setting up the ambush.

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I don't follow. If it's possible to have partial surprise, the rules seem pretty clear - it's a 1d roll, with modifiers as listed under Partial Surprise. I use this at least once a session, so I'm not seeing where it doesn't cover the "how."

I mean it doesn't say what you can do to get surprise. Do you make a Stealth roll? A Tactics roll? Just say you want to?

[Grey_Fox]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

Yes, it does. There are two relevant quotes:

"The GM is responsible for
determining when the attackers have
achieved surprise."

So even before the section gets to rolls, the GM can just say who is surprised and who is not. No roll needed.

Next, if a roll does happen, the GM can give the ambushers all the bonuses he wants - even so much that's a question of either the defenders being partially surprised or somehow pulling out a tie.

" The GM can apply other
modifiers as he sees fit; e.g., if he
thinks one side was more alert than
the other."

Both quotes are from p. B393.

It seems pretty clear the mechanisms are there for when there isn't a clear case and the GM wants to leave it up to a die roll.

I think the first quote there taken in context is to indicate whether a GM should use either partial or total surprise, in which case you would continue reading the specific rules for the case.

The second quote does resolve the problem but in a strange way, ie GM says "OK you guys have ambushed them really well roll 1d initiative + 100 to make sure you achieve partial surprise on them", seems no roll should be necessary or called for.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Tactical Shooting has rules for ambushes.

Thanks this resolves the issue perfectly (TS pg.21)

Originally Posted by TS pg.21

"If the target of a potential ambush expects trouble, don’t roll for initiative! Instead, roll a Quick Contest of the ambusher’s Camouflage, Shadowing, Stealth, or Tactics against the prey’s Per, Observation, or Tactics. If the ambusher wins, the target suffers partial surprise. If the ambusher loses by 5+, the would-be prey may opt to attack with the ambusher suffering partial surprise! Otherwise, each side spots the other; play out the encounter without surprise."

*note- I am unclear on the forum rules about posting quotes of rules, i have seen others do it and assume SJG is OK with it, but if the above quote is an issue please let me know and i will remove it.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by The Benj

I mean it doesn't say what you can do to get surprise. Do you make a Stealth roll? A Tactics roll? Just say you want to?

I see what you're saying, but:

When you achieve or deal with total surprise is up to the GM.

When you roll for partial surprise is also up to the GM.

So it stands to reason that if you want either, you need to do something the GM determines would let you achieve that. Stealth would work in a lot of cases. Tactics in others. Acting for the old "walk up casually" bit. Influence skills in others, if you're trying to lull someone into a false sense of security. Invisibility/Mage-Stealth/No-Smell is a great way to do it. Some of these might be opposed rolls, some of them might not be, depending on the circumstances.

It's really too broad to nail down into a single roll, or even set of guidelines beyond a GM's judgment call. Once it comes down to knowing one or both sides can be surprised, you roll that d6 with modifiers.

Maybe I'm being too flip, but this is something that's never come up as a problem or question in my games. I just determine when it does or might occur based on circumstances and then roll or not roll as it matters.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

The second quote does resolve the problem but in a strange way, ie GM says "OK you guys have ambushed them really well roll 1d initiative + 100 to make sure you achieve partial surprise on them", seems no roll should be necessary or called for.

Giving modifiers that make it impossible to get anything except perfect success means there is no need to roll - do the rules really need to state that explicitly?

I'm saying that it says you only need to make that roll if there is a chance the other guys might not be surprised after all. Here is an example of that, based on my original explanation:

Ambushers have a leader with Combat Reflexes (+1), and Tactics 20+ (+2). The ambushed guys have a leader with CR but no significant Tactics (+1). The GM figures there is a small chance the ambushed guys might react fast enough to use normal combat order and not lose any turns. So he gives the ambushers a +3. They roll 1d+6 against 1d+1. Best possible result is a tie at 7, but most likely the ambushed guys go after Partial Surprise.

Of course, that might be a bit too much for some folks - and for them the GM can just declare it works.

For others, it might be too coarse, and TS as you quoted has additional rules for that specific case.

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I see what you're saying, but:

When you achieve or deal with total surprise is up to the GM.

When you roll for partial surprise is also up to the GM.

So it stands to reason that if you want either, you need to do something the GM determines would let you achieve that. Stealth would work in a lot of cases. Tactics in others. Acting for the old "walk up casually" bit. Influence skills in others, if you're trying to lull someone into a false sense of security. Invisibility/Mage-Stealth/No-Smell is a great way to do it. Some of these might be opposed rolls, some of them might not be, depending on the circumstances.

It's really too broad to nail down into a single roll, or even set of guidelines beyond a GM's judgment call. Once it comes down to knowing one or both sides can be surprised, you roll that d6 with modifiers.

Maybe I'm being too flip, but this is something that's never come up as a problem or question in my games. I just determine when it does or might occur based on circumstances and then roll or not roll as it matters.

It's not something with which I've had any problems either, I'm just saying maybe people could be confused by not having more guidance for the GM.