Post-apocalyptic TL 5/8

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

For law enforcement I'd go with something like the Winchester 1886 chambered in .50-110 black powder centerfire rifle cartridge, and something like the S&W 500 chambered to fire the same bullet as a five shot revolver.

You mean the modern S&W .500 magnum?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500_S%26W_Magnum

The maximum psi with that is 60,000 and even conservative factory ammo is loaded at 50,000 psi. You will not be seeing that with black powder. No, not even if you use a "lot" of it.

I don't see nay real reason to go back to loading gate revolvers. It wasn't am matter of good steel or even precision manufacturing that lead to the "modern" swing-out cylinder designs seen in the late 1890s. It was just working the bugs out of the ergonomics.

So Colt New Service in .45 Colt. See Pulp Guns 1.

You could stick with the break open action of the S&W Model 3 even if you didn't go all the way to 1896 revolvers. The Number 3 is probably what Wyatt Earp actually carried at the OK Corral so that ought to be iconic enough for anyone.

Explain the proceedure for a loading gate revolver to your players and they'll choose anything else.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You mean the modern S&W .500 magnum?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500_S%26W_Magnum

The maximum psi with that is 60,000 and even conservative factory ammo is loaded at 50,000 psi. You will not be seeing that with black powder. No, not even if you use a "lot" of it.

I recall reading somewhere that the .50-110 black powder centerfire rifle cartridge got up to ~55,000 psi, I don't have a cite and could be misremembering, but that's why I suggested a sturdy revolver to fire those.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I recall reading somewhere that the .50-110 black powder centerfire rifle cartridge got up to ~55,000 psi, I don't have a cite and could be misremembering, but that's why I suggested a sturdy revolver to fire those.

From what I know about black powder such pressures are impossible.

What you may have heard about is this thing.....

http://www.z-hat.com/The%20Fifty.htm

...which is based on post-1900 barrels and smokeless powder.

It goes on to say......

<cut and paste>
Older rifles that are not stamped “nickel steel” (pre-1900~ on the barrel should be relegated to black-powder loads or smokeless loads that do not ex*ceed 28,000 psi.
</cut and paste>

This talks about reloading modern muzzleloaders with modern (read high quality) black powder and the psi produced.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

There were some pressured cited that exceeded what I expected but the average appeared to be under 20,000 psi. That's just not going to produce TL6 military rifle loads. No 9mm either. You might be able to do .45 ACP autoloader but I bet the black powder fouling makes it jam too often.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

From what I know about black powder such pressures are impossible.

Is it just traditional black powder, or would black powder made using current knowledge but TL5-6 techniques also be so constrained?


BTW, that article you cited does mention that the Winchester Model 71 can handle 42,000 psi, so perhaps what I'm misremembering is that one of the rifles chambered for the .50-110 black powder centerfire rifle cartridge is capable of handling up to ~55,000 psi, then again I read so much fiction that it could have just been what some author tossed out as justification for a dinosaur load or some such.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Is it just traditional black powder, or would black powder made using current knowledge but TL5-6 techniques also be so constrained?

Absolutely. It's based in black powder's fundamental burning characteristics.

You need high quality black powder to get up to the 1400 fps you sometimes see in black powder weapons. You absolutely have to have smokeless powder to get tot he 2800 fps we've come to expect from military rifles. Many historical black powder weapons in use under field conditions may have fired at not much over 500 fps.

The twin factors of higher velocities and less residue is why you see the French 75mm artillery piece the Maxim machine gun, the high velocity .30 caliber rifle and the self-loading autopistol appear so quickly after the invention of smokeless powder while none was practical before smokeless powder.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Absolutely. It's based in black powder's fundamental burning characteristics.

Not sure it's the pressure that's impossible, it's just that the pressure is fairly useless because a bullet can't go faster than the expansion rate of the gas.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not sure it's the pressure that's impossible, it's just that the pressure is fairly useless because a bullet can't go faster than the expansion rate of the gas.

.....and the expansion rate of black powder gases is much lower than that of smokeless powder gasses.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Jonas

A constant, hostile invasion threatening humanities existence and its NOT sparking people to try recovering/discovering better fight these things?

TL8 didn't do anything good the first time, why would they expect it to help the second time? Besides I don't plan to run a game about inventors struggling to recreate the atom bomb, or whatever.

[MatthewVilter]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

TL8 didn't do anything good the first time, why would they expect it to help the second time? Besides I don't plan to run a game about inventors struggling to recreate the atom bomb, or whatever.

NPCs trying might make good set dressing though.


Anyway, as others have said, antibiotics and vaccines seem like good contenders for things people would put the work in to keep.

Just looking at pages 6-7 of High-Tech for things that might be doable on a small scale and useful enough to bother with: Poison gas, fingerprinting, radios, electric lights, blood transfusions, inoculation, penicillin, electric motors, hydroelectric power, genetically engineered crops*, wind power.

As for medical technology I would go with the sidebar on Bio-Tech page 123; treat First Aid as a cultural skill. I would expect people to use versions of intubation kits, bag masks, sphygmomanometers, and IV fluids. People should also, I expect, practice basically modern physiotherapy. Prosthetics should be a lot better than historical TL 5 ones.

*Like Nosforontu said, any that survive might be useful.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Personally I'd make something like the Winchester 1892 as the basic civilian standard chambered in the same .45 as the Peacemaker.

For law enforcement I'd go with something like the Winchester 1886 chambered in .50-110 black powder centerfire rifle cartridge, and something like the S&W 500 chambered to fire the same bullet as a five shot revolver.

It also occurs to me that you are not going to see such a neat distinction between civilian and military arms assuming that there is any distinction at all.

Given the limited production capacity, which under the circumstances may well be lower than the overall TL might imply it is not unlikely that individual producers may favour a relatively small number of 'dual use' models.

My best guess would be that these will be rifles in .45-70 or similar calibres, think Remington-Lee and Winchester '76 clones, and revolvers similar to the S&W no3 or hand ejector, Colt New Service or Webley models in a variety of .38 or .45 chamberings.