Post-apocalyptic TL 5/8

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Limit production to black powder

Is that especially plausible? The Haber process doesn't require a huge industrial base.

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Enough to change the medical TL to 6 or higher for First Aid and Physician rolls? Of course Germ Theory is solidly TL5 already.

I am thinking TL 6 but I am far from being an expert on the requirements of medical infrastructure. They should still have a lot of knowledge left over on how the human body works, the need to sterilize medical tools between uses etc etc. Addtionally little things such as CPR or the Heimlich maneuver probably do not need a tech base to maintain as long you still have the information lying around.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yes and this was the sort of detail I'm looking for here. What items and techniques that are technically TL6-8 by date of introduction but are totally possible for cottage industry production at TL5?

Left/right shoes and standardized shoe sizes, up to as late as 1850 most shoes had no difference between left and right. I really can't see not to have left/right shoes once the concept has been around.

Double Seem Canning seems to be both cheaper and safer ultimately and was invented in 1888. Considering ongoing food problems are still an ongoing issue in your campaign "safe food tech" seems like a priority tech.

Baseball caps were first introduced in 1860 and seem to be a simple enough piece of tech to still be maintained

Zippers were a 1851 tech so shouldnt be to hard for your TL 5/6 society to still have around.

T Shirts are a late 19th century tech but seem simple enough that they should not present any real hurdles for a TL 5 Tech Base to manufacture, nor should using T Shirts to advertise various things either.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

the need to sterilize medical tools between uses etc etc.

That's totally TL5. Pasteur did the theoretical groundwork in the 1860s and Lister the practical technology in the '70s.

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's totally TL5. Pasteur did the theoretical groundwork in the 1860s and Lister the practical technology in the '70s.

My apologies mentally I was thinking the border line for TL 5-6 was 1850s for some reason. I might actually have to look through the books and relook at the defined tech year divides again :). TL 5 is not one of those tech levels I have looked at for a very long time

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Is that especially plausible? The Haber process doesn't require a huge industrial base.

<shrug> Eccentric survival of knowldege of TL6 industrial processes is certainly possible after the failure of TL8 information storage technology.

Looking up "Haber process"......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

......I get multiple steps involving very high pressures with one step apparently requiring no less than 2200 psi. looks to me as though you need good steel and probably lots of it. I'd rate it as full TL6 industry with no "cottage" stuff.

If you have that fully developed TL6 society available to you then smokeless powder would not really be significantly more difficult to make than black powder. On the other hand, if you're trying to recreate technology in an abandoned barn TL5 generally might look much more attractive.

[Agent]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't really won't some weird steampunk schizo-tech. What I want is a post-apocalyptic horror/western. The goal is a rationale for weapons and technology that wouldn't be totally out of place in the late 19th century.

If 'air rifle' is steampunk schizo-tech someone should tell the many hunters out there killing deer, buffalo, boar, etcetera with them right now...

On the other hand, if you're trying to recreate technology in an abandoned barn TL5 generally might look much more attractive.

Mostly agree, and individual 'barns' would have their own recipes. Since longer-living powder makers are probably keeping things in small doses there would probably be dozens of different manufacturers of varying qualities - even if there was a central manufacturer churning out the bulk and crossing their fingers.

Someone, somewhere, would probably be messing with Nitro though...I can see it going either way in terms of how wide-spread it gets, as again, 1 central manufacture having some know-how, equipment, and luck can blow it open.

Some blown-up factories can put a damper on anyone's style, though.

[Libertine]

What about flame throwers? Zippo lighters are tl 5 & a stray aerosol can and a few jury rigs to keep things in place and you have a weapon for lower income scavengers, also, what about spring loaded one shots when black powder isn't available? And vehicles. With modern appliances laying around, the possibilities for chariot vehicles can be particularly lucrative.

Horse drawn chariots with barbed wire siding and gouts of flame at the flanks, scavenged rifle rows jury rigged to fire at once in the front and front armor with viewing slits. Heavy metal studded armor for horses.

[sjard]

The problem I always run into when trying to think of what there would still be for a setting like this is that I can't seem to keep technology from quickly returning to at least early WWII technology in relatively short order.

If you've got TL 5 tech base, and any information left over on what is required for TL 6+ combined with the various bits left laying around from the before times... most of the tech difference consists of slight improvements on how to do things.

For example, electricity, if you know the basics of how to generate it, is relatively easy to do, even at a lower tech base. If you have electricity, you can make motors to run machines, which then gives you finer control over manufacturing, even on a small scale.

Sure, you won't have all the bells and whistles of the higher tech, but you could probably get the equivalent of artisan crafted motor vehicles as opposed to assembly line building of them.

The population issue will slow down large scale advancement, but don't underestimate how much can be done with a small shop when you already know something is possible.

After all, things like the Sten series weapons were designed to be quickly built by most private garage shops. So if they can manufacture admittedly ugly weapons, what else can they manufacture that can assist in restoring past technology.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Limit production to black powder and you're pretty much limited to manual actions (revolver, lever, pump, bolt).. You won't get the velocity normally associated with bolt-action rifle either.

A bolt-action .45-70 with a tubular magazine is starting to sound pretty attractive.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't really won't some weird steampunk schizo-tech. What I want is a post-apocalyptic horror/western. The goal is a rationale for weapons and technology that wouldn't be totally out of place in the late 19th century.

If the knowledge survived, then you can get production of many things at the "Artisan" level which can't be produced at the factory level, and some of the things which were invented at higher TL are actually easier to produce than their lower TL counterparts, as long as the knowledge is retained.

This also applies to many medical procedures, you can do transplants, blood transfusions and such, you just don't get the imaging bonuses.

The advantage of the artisanship paradigm is that each item/batch becomes unique, so you don't get standardization of ammunition or parts.

For weapons that means you have to either self-load, or buy from a given dealer/artisan group who make ammo and parts for your particular weapons. Though if they're trying to abide by an existing standard you could just have a Malfunction roll when using off-manufacture so called .45 ammo, just like you'd apply for someone reloading the same old cartridge for the umpteenth time.

You can adapt some of the Prototype rules from p.473, but basically anyone with the right knowledge and access to a good machine shop can make individual one off items, especially if the items don't have inordinately high precision tolerances.

Think of all the things you can build in your garage/shop if you wanted to, the biggest hindrances are time and money. Time can be somewhat mitigated by hiring a few people to do grunt work, but just like every good sized town used to have a blacksmith, if knowledge is retained every good sized town will also have a machinist/artisan if at nothing else at the bike shop level.