[Spaceships] Combat Examples?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

That's right. Still, I feel that 1/4 damage and 1/8 penetration is more balanced than full damage and 1/2 penetration. I could just make something up, but the numbers from HT feel appropriate, even if they aren't intended for this exact situation.

While the idea of the missile being able to hit mostly-intact for a bigger, better 'boom' seems reasonable to me (and the (2) is probably not worth much anyway), based on the explanation I'd suggest that the full-impact missile should probably be increased damage, and the fragment damage unchanged.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

That's... about as far from "generic" as you can get. It may be a realistic proposal, but it bears no resemblance to any missile I've seen in fiction. I'd only use it in a rigorously hard-science setting. It's fine for hard-science missiles to be the default assumption, but Spaceship's complete lack of a softer or space-opera alternative is a major sticking point for me (and others, based on the multitude of threads on this topic.)

Spaceships standard missiles are pretty thoroughly inappropriate for almost anything that isn't fairly hard SF. You can use them there, but they don't really belong or fit. The missiles that do fit are missing, as far as I can tell.

This observation doesn't require delving into the finer points of proximity vs. 'impact' fuzing.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It has one. Don't use velocity damage at all because the missiles are using non-newtonian missiles.

I think a minimal missile yield of 25 kilotons is not a great match for most soft SF either.

[JP42]

For the softest of soft, make 'em all warp missiles, with a velocity multiplier of 1. Saves trouble of having them on the map (they go light speed) and makes them potentially survivable, under the right conditions, while being something to be reckoned with - depending on relative armor and shields.

I'd like to see some combat examples that use those high-end weapon systems as well. Hard SF is great, and it tends to be where my brain wants to go, but any real examples of combat that have felt right, that'd be great.

[apoc527]

Just go the Honorverse route -- all missiles are laserheads. Done! Contact nukes are very effective, but they'll never make it past point defense of a real warship.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Just go the Honorverse route -- all missiles are laserheads. Done! Contact nukes are very effective, but they'll never make it past point defense of a real warship.

Well, not really done, as such. The laser heads given in the book have significant limitations.

Also, you've got the problem of making that assertion true.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I ran a combat last night, using a straightforward conversion of the Jovian Chronicles game from Dream Pod 9, which is a relatively low-missiles setting. Sadly, one side didn't have any point defense and got annihilated by a couple of missiles, but it's available anyway:

http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com...hronicles.html

I'm going to redo it in a separate post soon after giving the side without point defense some point defense and see how that goes. I'll write it up the same way.

Here's the write-up of the second combat:
http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com...nicles_19.html

This time, the example combat was much closer and harder fought.

I'm not sure how well Spaceships works as an open-ended simulator of the evolution of future combat strategies. I think that as a system for quickly designing spacecraft, or converting spacecraft from other games, and then playing out small scale combats, it works decently well and better than most of the space combat games in RPGs these days. But more testing and playing is needed.

[apoc527]

Much closer and quite a bit more interesting. Personally, I like the feel of a setting where missiles are better at "final strikes" than they are at being the primary weapon. Huge giant missile swarms a la Honorverse are fun, but they are a pain to game out in any system. Also, missiles are expensive--I would prefer settings where they are used more like in today's fights--common, but not expended in spare-no-expense flights of death.

I also love the two other ships you converted. I'd love to see actual play examples of those in use. And really, I can't thank you enough for doing this--it's inspiring to see what happens with these rules in actual play, as opposed to the often negative theorizing that goes on around here (as on most forums). I think Pulver came up with a very workable system, but there are weak spots and things it's not intended to do--simulate a future battle paradigm is definitely outside the scope. But within the scope of a setting, like JC, it seems to work well enough.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by JP42

For the softest of soft, make 'em all warp missiles, with a velocity multiplier of 1. Saves trouble of having them on the map (they go light speed) and makes them potentially survivable, under the right conditions, while being something to be reckoned with - depending on relative armor and shields.

That helps a bit, though it still leaves us with the weird scaling relative to ship HP/DR and beam damage. At the small end, an SM +5 Major Battery missile launcher deals 7.5 times as much damage as a same-sized laser; at the large end, an SM +15 Major Battery missile deals 84% as much as a laser. For space opera, I'd probably make projectiles deal a fixed multiple of same-sized beam weapon damage. Or I suppose I could drop projectiles entirely and represent proton torpedoes and similar weapons as Plasma "Beams", handwaving issues like limited ammo and missile guidance vs ECM.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Much closer and quite a bit more interesting. Personally, I like the feel of a setting where missiles are better at "final strikes" than they are at being the primary weapon. Huge giant missile swarms a la Honorverse are fun, but they are a pain to game out in any system. Also, missiles are expensive--I would prefer settings where they are used more like in today's fights--common, but not expended in spare-no-expense flights of death.

I also love the two other ships you converted. I'd love to see actual play examples of those in use. And really, I can't thank you enough for doing this--it's inspiring to see what happens with these rules in actual play, as opposed to the often negative theorizing that goes on around here (as on most forums). I think Pulver came up with a very workable system, but there are weak spots and things it's not intended to do--simulate a future battle paradigm is definitely outside the scope. But within the scope of a setting, like JC, it seems to work well enough.

I'm writing up the Pathfinders vs the Bricriu right now, and it's a bit of a mess. The e-mag guns are useless in the face of point defense; the Bricriu is invulnerable to the Pathfinder's p-beams at short range and can shred them with its own p-beams at close range; and the winning condition for the Pathfinders is to get behind the corvette and slam it with missiles where its' point defense systems don't cover. Moving the PDS battery to the central hull would fix that problem, but then there's no way for the Pathfinders to damage the Bricriu at all. I'll probably post it tomorrow, but I'm going to want to revisit it in a day or three.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Much closer and quite a bit more interesting. Personally, I like the feel of a setting where missiles are better at "final strikes" than they are at being the primary weapon. Huge giant missile swarms a la Honorverse are fun, but they are a pain to game out in any system. Also, missiles are expensive--I would prefer settings where they are used more like in today's fights--common, but not expended in spare-no-expense flights of death.

What 'today's fights' are you thinking of here?

Mass volleys of missiles versus point defense is pretty much the predicted look of modern naval war, as far as I know. Like most modern full-scale war possibilities it hasn't had a lot of chance to be practiced, but we have the warships designed for it.

Air to air missiles aren't fired in huge volleys (as far as I know) because there's no point defense and one hit is sufficient. Air to ground missile targets are basically defenseless and overkilled by one shot.