Confused...difference between maneuvers, techniques, perks?

[Asabmow]

So I'm confused. I've read the sections on each of these in the Basic set and looked at the definition in the glossary, and I have an older version of Martial Arts (prior to 3rd or 4th edition, so things are different) but I'm still not all together clear on the precise difference and when a character can officially use a maneuver vs a technique vs a perk. This is especially confusing as some are named the same.

For example with an all-out attack maneuver, and I can pick the "Double" option, and then I can make two attacks, and one or more of those "attacks" can be substituted with an appropriate technique. Is this right? Or are the techniques sort of just modifying the maneuver? Some techniques specify when they can be used, some don't. Do all techniques require that first a maneuver is announced first? Could I do an all-out attack with a "neck snap" and "knee strike" or just one or the other? How about a "elbow strike" and a "knee strike"? What if I use the option Rapid Strike, could I make three attacks with large penalty modifiers, all different techniques or does this require some additional "combination" technique? Does the "neck snap" technique require a "grappling" roll because it mentions "grab" in the description, or is it just an Attack i.e. from the description "this brute force attack"?

Is grappling itself a technique? a maneuver? or something different? How about what happens after a successful grappling move (is it a move?) like Takedown? What is that? Is there any reason to use the Feint maneuver and not the Feint technique?

Also I got Power Ups 2 - Perks and some of the Perks sound like techniques, but read like they are just meant to modify existing techniques so if I have the Razor Kicks perk, I just say I'm using a Attack, Kicking technique using my Razor Kicks perk to make it a Razor Kick and cause more damage?

Are there any examples or flow charts out there for announcing maneuvers, maneuver options, techniques, technique options, perks, etc. in the proper order? Are there any perks that actually *are* techniques?

One more thing...is a "Power" essentially just a superhero type "Advantage". Also, why do some Perks, which my understanding are just small Advantages, sound like Skills. For example, Reach Mastery is a "perk" but it sounds like something you would "train" i.e. a skill. I thought Advantages were basically innate while Skills were trained.

Thanks.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

A maneuver is an action which one may attempt. A character typically rolls against a skill when attempting the maneuver.

A technique is a sort of sub-skill, improving one's ability with an underlying skill for a particular use. Some but not all techniques specifically increase a character's ability with a maneuver. In that case, the maneuver and the corresponding technique typically have the same name; for example, the Feint technique provides a bonus when attempting a feint maneuver.

A perk is a very small advantage. Some perks enhance how one may use skills in various ways, but generally grant small new abilities or allow crossovers between skills rather than granting simple bonuses. For example, Grip Mastery allows a character to switch his grip on a weapon in essentially no time. Changing grip requires time but no skill roll, so it's inappropriate for a technique. Perks are generally binary (the character can or can't take the action); if the ability is scalable (anyone with the skill can try it, but can do it better or worse), a technique is more suitable.

A Power consists of a Talent, a Power Modifier, and a list of advantages which a character might buy, but he doesn't have to buy all of them. The talent provides bonuses to advantages within the group, while the modifier both reduces the cost of the advantages and provides them with a vulnerability (for example, having a "magic" modifier makes the advantages vulnerable to no-mana zones and other anti-magic countermeasures). I'm not surprised you're confused; it took me three reads through Powers to finally get that.

[Refplace]

The Combat cards are good and about as close to a flow chart a I can think of.
Each Maneuver lets you use a set of skills (which include Te4chniques as Turhens Bay replied).
Concentrate wont let you make any attacks for example but might be needed to set up an attack like a spell or Psi power.
Attack and some other maneuvers have variations or maybe sub manuevers that change waht happens.
You must use a kill (even a default skill) to complete the attack maneuver adn hit or do damage.

Grappling is an attack skill so used with the attack maneuver.
Some of this will broaden with Technical Grappling.
Martial Arts does not change the rules from ther Basic set so much as again braodning the choices.
Currently see "Actions after a Grapple" or somethign for more ideas once you have grappled someone. You can go for a pin or other options.
I dont tihnk you can do a takedown with the basic set.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Asabmow

So I'm confused. I've read the sections on each of these in the Basic set and looked at the definition in the glossary, and I have an older version of Martial Arts (prior to 3rd or 4th edition, so things are different) but I'm still not all together clear on the precise difference and when a character can officially use a maneuver vs a technique vs a perk. This is especially confusing as some are named the same.

The old version of MA is going to be a serious complication here; I am assuming, because you mentioned Perks, that you're mostly using 4e. Maneuvers are broad scale: Attack means an unmodified attack, All Out Attack means that you're just attacking, not defending, but you get a bonus or an extra attack. Techniques are types of attack, so if you have an unarmed combat skill a punch is one technique, a kick is another, a leg sweep is a third. For each attack you have, you can choose one technique to attack with, from those available to your unarmed combat skill (Boxing doesn't teach kicks, for instance). Many techniques are at a penalty to skill (e.g. Kicking someone is -2 to your Karate skill to hit them), but you can spend points to buy them up, at a cheaper rate than buying skill (so you could spend points to make kicks at the same skill level as punches, for instance). Perks are 1 point traits that give some type of minor or situational benefit; some of these benefits apply to combat, like Sure-Footed, which reduces the penalties for fighting on rough terrain.

For example with an all-out attack maneuver, and I can pick the "Double" option, and then I can make two attacks, and one or more of those "attacks" can be substituted with an appropriate technique. Is this right?

This is correct: Each attack uses a technique; you could punch and kick in the same turn, for instance.

Some techniques specify when they can be used, some don't. Do all techniques require that first a maneuver is announced first?

Yes, if a technique requires taht someone be grappled, then you have to make a roll to grapple them before you can, e.g. use Neck Snap.

Could I do an all-out attack with a "neck snap" and "knee strike" or just one or the other?

Yes, as long as you had the other party grappled already. (IIRC, Neck Snap requires that)

How about a "elbow strike" and a "knee strike"?

Yup

What if I use the option Rapid Strike, could I make three attacks with large penalty modifiers, all different techniques

Yup

Does the "neck snap" technique require a "grappling" roll because it mentions "grab" in the description,

Yes
[QUOTE]
Is grappling itself a technique?
Yes

How about what happens after a successful grappling move (is it a move?) like Takedown? What is that?

Also a technique

Is there any reason to use the Feint maneuver and not the Feint technique?

Buying up the Feint technique makes you better at the Feint maneuver; ordinarily the Feint is rolled against the combat skill, but if you buy up the Feint technique you use that instead.

so if I have the Razor Kicks perk, I just say I'm using a Attack, Kicking technique using my Razor Kicks perk to make it a Razor Kick and cause more damage?

Yes.

Are there any perks that actually *are* techniques?

No

One more thing...is a "Power" essentially just a superhero type "Advantage".

Yes. Usually calling it a Power implies that there's a Power modifier on the advantage, like (Magical -10%), which would mean that antimagic things would affect your advantage.

Also, why do some Perks, which my understanding are just small Advantages, sound like Skills. For example, Reach Mastery is a "perk" but it sounds like something you would "train" i.e. a skill.

Because there's no skill roll involved in changing reach.

I thought Advantages were basically innate while Skills were trained.

Not always. Combat Reflexes is the classic example of a (potentially) learned advantage.

[Walrus]

A character typically rolls against a skill when attempting the maneuver.

Not so. It's only for Attack maneuver (and variants) and some Concentrate maneuvers, don't confuse people more ;)


Maneuver is player choice of character's actions. It determines available movement, defense options and other rules. The list of maneuvers includes: All-Out Attack, Attack, All-Out Defense, Move and Attack, Move, Aim, Concentrate, Wait, Ready, Change Posture and Do Nothing. This is in Basic Campaigns. p. 363 and Basic Characters, p. 324 (in brief). I excluded Feint because it's generally considered not a maneuver but Attack Option. MA adds two additional maneuvers: Commited Attack and Defensive Attack. There are also some clarifications for Wait, Do Nothing and Concentrate in different supplements.

A lot of Maneuvers allow to make one or more attacks. This includes All-Out Attack, Attack, Move and Attack, Wait, Commited Attack and Defensive Attack.

Any attack allowed by maneuver should be defined as attack type. This include general attack (swing or thrust, punch or kick and whatever), Feint, different techniques, grappling, disarm, Rapid Strike (to convert one attack into several) and a lot of other options, described in MA and some other supplements (e.g. Gun Fu for cinematic gunfights).

Furthermore, any separate attack may be modified by attack options like Deceptive or Telegraphic Attack, attacking certain Hit Locations, using certain techniques and other.

Techniques have different usages. Combat techniques may be entire maneuvers (some techniques in MA are used only as option for AoA or Commited Attack), attack types (Kicking, Disarm, Feint), or attack options (Targeted Attack) or something else.

Perks are character traits which allow some options. Combat perks allow combat options. E.g. Razor Kicks perk allows you to use such attack type (Razor Kick is attack type).

There are some perks which cover previous techniques, e.g. Off-Hand Weapon Training because it was considered too costly as technique.

Combat perks (like Grip Mastery) have some additional semi-optional rules about them in MA. They are usually learned as part of a style and they are like skills in the sense they may be learned or trained.

But the defining Advantages as purely inborn traits isn't consistent in the first place. One can train or learn many advantages (mundane ones, especially on low levels, like Night Vision, Less Sleep, G-experience or even Photographic Memory) and only the world physics determines how supernatural advantages may be acquired (are they trained, inborn or only granted by some higher beings).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Asabmow

I have an older version of Martial Arts (prior to 3rd or 4th edition, so things are different)

Here's your problem (and your book is not prior to 3e, 1e Martial Arts was for GURPS 3e). 3e Martial Arts isn't compatible with 4e. In particular what 3e called "maneuvers" are now "techniques" in 4e.

Originally Posted by Refplace

I dont tihnk you can do a takedown with the basic set.

Takedown p. B370

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Takedown p. B370

Thank you. Already over rode the current rules in favor of TG in my brain.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Thank you. Already over rode the current rules in favor of TG in my brain.

Eh. The change isn't THAT big.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Eh. The change isn't THAT big.

LOL. I disagree but we shall see what the public opinion is once its finally published. But the Pin and Takedown sections pretty much are.
Thankfully.

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Here's your problem (and your book is not prior to 3e, 1e Martial Arts was for GURPS 3e). 3e Martial Arts isn't compatible with 4e. In particular what 3e called "maneuvers" are now "techniques" in 4e.

Specifically if it is in 3e martial arts defaults to a skill some way and you can spend points on it is called a technique now to avoid some of the confusion sharing a name for common combat options. If it is a combat option that anyone can take such as Wait, All Out Attack, All out Defense etc those are still called maneuvers in 4e.