Why learn a martial art?

[PK]

Originally Posted by MrGreezy

If the techniques and perks must be bought, why learn a style instead of buying the skills you want?

Learning a style is just buying the skills of that style (plus the Style Familiarity perk). So if you don't want those skills, then you probably shouldn't learn that style. Think of a style as a mini-template (or lens) -- it's a collection of skills that you should buy if you want to play a PC who's a master of <X> style.

In other words, you should learn the Muay Thai style because you want to play a PC who's great at Muay Thai! If that sounds cool to you, then GURPS Martial Arts exists to show you which skills you should buy to realize this character concept. Just like if you wanted to play a knight, you could use a "knight" template to know what skills are appropriate and useful.

The only real difference between "I know these skills" and "I've learned this style" is that the latter means you also bought Style Familiarity. That perk is pretty cool -- it gives you a lot of minor benefits for just a point -- but it has the prerequisite that you can't take it unless you first take all of the primary skills of the style. So that's the one true game-mechanical benefit of "learning a style" -- you get to buy Style Familiarity for it.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by PK

The only real difference between "I know these skills" and "I've learned this style" is that the latter means you also bought Style Familiarity. That perk is pretty cool -- it gives you a lot of minor benefits for just a point -- but it has the prerequisite that you can't take it unless you first take all of the primary skills of the style. So that's the one true game-mechanical benefit of "learning a style" -- you get to buy Style Familiarity for it.

I thought that you had to be in a style to be able to improve the techniques of that style above default. Am I wrong here?

And of course the cinematic techniques and skills usually need Trained by a Master and the master in question may be picky about who, how, and what he teaches.

[MrGreezy]

Thanks for all the responses, guys, it's really clearing things up.

Last question (potentially, ha!): what does the Style Familiarity point do other than officially recognize the style? The book makes it seem like that's all it does.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by MrGreezy

Last question (potentially, ha!): what does the Style Familiarity point do other than officially recognize the style? The book makes it seem like that's all it does.

Quite a few things. See Martial Arts p49.

[Pragmatic]

From what I understand, if you've got combat skills, you GET to BUY one perk for every 20 skill points you have in combat skills.

If you've got a martial arts style, you GET to BUY additional perks (from those listed within the style) for every 10 points you have in that particular style's techniques and required skills.

So if you have 20 points in various combat skills, you get the privilege of buying one martial perk.

But if you put those same 20 points into a particular martial arts style, you get to buy one martial perk (any of the "generic" ones, IIRC). AND you get to buy two of the martial perks associated with that combat style.

You STILL have to spend your character points on the perks (nothing is "free" in 4E). You don't have to buy the perks.

And if you have multiple styles, there's rules (somewhere... I'm just browsing the PDF for the book right now) as to how you earn style perks across multiple styles, and how you can spend them within individual styles.

Note that this is all predicated on the "limited perks" (I think it's a maximum of 1 generic perk for every 25 character points, and 1 combat perk for every 20 points in combat skills). If characters are allowed to buy as many perks as they want, this is all moot.

[PK]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I thought that you had to be in a style to be able to improve the techniques of that style above default. Am I wrong here?

The GM has the option of declaring that techniques cannot be improved beyond default unless you've trained in a style that includes said technique. It's not a hard and fast rule, so much as a way for the GM to make styles more important if he wants that in his campaign.

The actual hard rule is that Style Familiarity lets you improve your style's techniques at any time; see below.

Originally Posted by MrGreezy

what does the Style Familiarity point do other than officially recognize the style? The book makes it seem like that's all it does.

See the bullets on p. 49 of GURPS Martial Arts. In brief, Style Familiarity lets you learn the style's perks and improve its techniques at any time (instead of having to wait and train during downtime) because you're assumed to have already practiced them; you ignore cultural penalties when interacting with fellow stylists; you are assumed to have a minor Claim to Hospitality or similar benefit; and you suffer less from Feints and Deceptive Attacks from fellow stylists.

In addition to the above, when you "know" a style (which requires buying its Style Familiarity), you're entitled to buy more Style Perks than you normally would be allowed. Since Style Perks are pretty awesome, and cheap, this is not an insignificant benefit -- even though you don't get any discount on their price.

As I said above, it's a pretty great deal for just 1 point, and that's not even including that it's what takes you from "I know a few combat skills" to "I've trained in this particular style."

[MrGreezy]

Thanks so much.

I was having trouble wrapping my head around it all for some reason and you guys have cleared it all up. Well played.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by MrGreezy

I was having trouble wrapping my head around it all for some reason and you guys have cleared it all up. Well played.

Even for long-time players (or at least me), the richness of martial arts skills and styles in 4e requires some effort to grasp. You're not alone there. For example, reading this thread, I drew a complete blank on what the official rule is for whether you can buy up a combat skill's Techniques when the Style Fam Perk is lacking. (PK cleared it up nicely: it's a GM option.) There are other detailed bits, too, that always send me back to Martial Arts for a re-check.

But in any case, I call it "rich", not "complex". 4e does good stuff with martial arts. Getting back to the initial question of the thread, back in 3e I couldn't figure out what made a "style" different from a bunch of skills, mechanics-wise. That lack of a difference didn't break anything, but it was unsatisfying. 4e's simple Style Fam Perk nicely handles this.

4e addresses other little issues, too: for example, 3e would give some styles little freebies, like acrobatic feints for Capoeira, that made for nice descriptive and mechanical touches, but again, were vaguely unsatisfying ("so, I can just toss in stuff like this for free? Anywhere I like?"). 4e again uses Perks to nicely codify these tweaks.

Sorry, I ramble. But while the whole 4e combat skill/style system isn't necessarily what we'd ideally build new from scratch, I thought I'd take this chance to tell the SJG folks that, with 4e, they've updated legacy martial arts rules with some very nice design work.

Oh, and I have a question too. One thing easy to overlook in Style Fam is a touch of disadvantage that it carries. A style includes the benefit that you can better read a fellow stylist, and better defend against his Feints and Deceptive Attacks. That seems fair. But it also means he better defends against your use of these moves. And if he has a second style that you don't have, he can use Style 1 to better defend against your actions, while using Style 2 to more effectively attack you.

My question: In this specific situation, wouldn't you be better off having no style at all, thus becoming less "readable" to your foe? If that's so, is there anything you can do about this during the battle? Can you declare, "I throw a Deceptive Attack, but it's with generic Karate skill, not my style"? Yeah, it sounds a little cheat-y, and I can see the GM ruling this out if the attack is one that clearly required the style (like a bought-up Technique). But if it's just a generic Karate punch, the same punch that you could throw if you had nothing more than the unadorned skill, is there a mechanical reason why you can't throw the punch "out of style"?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by tbone

My question: In this specific situation, wouldn't you be better off having no style at all, thus becoming less "readable" to your foe?

The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it nor the wise make plans against it
-- Sun Tzu.

:)

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by tbone

My question: In this specific situation, wouldn't you be better off having no style at all, thus becoming less "readable" to your foe?

No style, or all styles, so you can read them but they can't read you.

Originally Posted by tbone

If that's so, is there anything you can do about this during the battle? Can you declare, "I throw a Deceptive Attack, but it's with generic Karate skill, not my style"?

Did you learn it without a style? No instructor, no history, no readable technique? If your GM says that's okay that you did so, yes. It's pretty cinematic, though. Even the guys who said they learned from watch birds or monkeys or whatever ended up with styles. Bruce Lee's goal was a way, not a style, but you can tell people who try to fight like him and you can see his influences in his approach.

In game, I wouldn't let someone take Muay Thai and then say "I throw a totally non-Muay Thai punch!" anymore than let someone say "I speak English, but with no accent or regional pronunciation!" It just doesn't seem possible, realistically, and it's clearly meant to be an abuse in game (You're trying to dodge a disadvantage that came with your advantages, while still taking full advantage of your advantages.)