The Definite d20/D&D Conversion thread

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

That all looks good to me. Also makes me want to play a sorcerer/wizard/bard.

Just one question: will an exception to the "no arcane healing spells" be made for Bards, whose learnable spell lists -do- include Cure Light Wounds and the like?

To be honest, I'd rather not - I rather like the idea of making arcane magic more unified and blurring the boundaries between arcane magic-using classes. Making a special exception for bards would make it difficult to explain why sorcerers and wizards couldn't learn them

Are Bards, as jacks of all trades, expected to buy minor levels or Power Investiture to gods with the Healing domain to get such spells?

That might be the best idea, and it echoes the AD&D 1E bard - who could cast druid spells.

Or maybe we could do something on the lines of the "New Realm" Power-Up for clerics from GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 11 - only in this case, people with Magical Aptitude could buy Power Investiture itself as a "Power-Up" for their Magical Aptitude. This could also represent the Theurgist prestige class...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

To be honest, I'd rather not - I rather like the idea of making arcane magic more unified and blurring the boundaries between arcane magic-using classes.

The only reason bards are arcane casters in d20 is because they felt the need to limit spellcasting to two types. They really just cast bardic spells, which are a mix of arcane and divine spells -- at level 1, 3/26 spells are otherwise divine-exclusive (cure light wounds, remove fear, undetectable alignment), at level 2 7/35 (animal messenger, animal trance, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, enthrall, silence, sound burst), and so on.

In general, it's probably fair to say that bardic mages do get healing spells, and don't get elemental magics unless they also fall in a non-elemental college (such as air spells in sound).

[Pragmatic]

In 1E, bards were druidic, weren't they? Weren't they a fighter, then a druid, then a thief, and finally a bard? What spells did the bardic magical musical instruments (named after the different bardic colleges) allow to be cast?

What were they in 2E?

(I kind of like to "mix it up" when it comes to classes/races/etc. and the various incarnations of D&D and Pathfinder...)

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The only reason bards are arcane casters in d20 is because they felt the need to limit spellcasting to two types. They really just cast bardic spells, which are a mix of arcane and divine spells -- at level 1, 3/26 spells are otherwise divine-exclusive (cure light wounds, remove fear, undetectable alignment), at level 2 7/35 (animal messenger, animal trance, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, enthrall, silence, sound burst), and so on.

In general, it's probably fair to say that bardic mages do get healing spells, and don't get elemental magics unless they also fall in a non-elemental college (such as air spells in sound).

So what's the general consensus here? Should bards get their own spell lists, or not?

[Pragmatic]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

So what's the general consensus here? Should bards get their own spell lists, or not?

In my case, it depends on whether we're casting bards as a separate magical lineage, or simply mages with the "song-based" limitation.

The 1E of D&D had bards being the druidic/bardic type. 2E & 3.xE cast them as "mages with the song limitation, plus some cleric/druid spells."

But this is GURPS. There can be a thousand different interpretations, and as long as the math is right, go for whatever suits your tastes. :-)

[Faolyn]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

That all looks good to me. Also makes me want to play a sorcerer/wizard/bard.

Just one question: will an exception to the "no arcane healing spells" be made for Bards, whose learnable spell lists -do- include Cure Light Wounds and the like? Are Bards, as jacks of all trades, expected to buy minor levels or Power Investiture to gods with the Healing domain to get such spells?

It might just be easiest to make a bardic spell list, because I'm sure there are a fair number of spells from other colleges that feel bardic, and conversely, while illusions are perfect, creations might not fit the flavor (your mileage may vary, of course).

[Pragmatic]

Trying to find the "Instruments of the Bards," for 3.xE, but not having any luck. I'd SWEAR I've seen them in one of my books, but as usual when I'm actually looking, they're hiding.

I DID find these in Complete Adventurer:
Harp of the Immortal Maestro (levitate, magical circle against evil; 15 ranks in Perform, cure critical wounds, displacement, summon monster v)

Lute of the Wandering Minstrel (levitate, magical circle against evil; 5 ranks in Perform, expeditious retreat, haste, phantom steed)

Mandolin of the Inspiring Muse (levitate, magical circle against evil; 15 ranks in Perform, crushing despair, dominate person, good hope)

(Though the names ARE more evocative than the old Instruments of the Bards...)

[Jürgen Hubert]

OK, let's go with a different approach for bards:

Bards: purchase Magery (Bardic) for the normal cost of Magery, and up to three levels are available. In general, their spells function as normally, but their magic rituals function somewhat different from other mages.

The default assumption is that bards cast a spell while singing and doing one of the following:

- Doing gestures with their hands (like an opera singer)
- Dancing
- Playing an instrument

This is generally indistinguishable from normal, mundane performances and not recognizable as "casting magic" by the audience, although the power of "bard-song" is generally known, and it will be detect as magic to those with supernatural senses.

A highly formalized performance taking at least 10 seconds or double the normal casting time will grant +1 to the bard's effective skill (although many bards will take considerably more time out of professional pride).

Casting a bardic spell via dancing or playing an instrument alone (without singing) is at a -2 penalty. It is not possible to cast bardic spells via gestures alone.

Casting a bardic spell by singing alone - without gestures, dancing, or playing an instrument - is at a -2 penalty.

Casting a bardic spell as a loud, rousing speech instead of singing (again, without gestures, dancing, or playing an instrument) is at a -4 penalty.

Casting a bardic spell as a few, quiet words ("You don't want to do that.", "Don't worry, you are going to be fine.") is at a -6 penalty.



Oh, and another note about wizards and sorcerers: They are mages and can learn spells the "normal" way. Which in the case of wizards is highly recommended so that they don't have to waste their precious spell slots on all the prerequisites - they only have to use them for their "high-level spells".

[Faolyn]

Storytelling and public speaking are big parts of bardic-ness. You may want to allow for that, without penalty, in addition to singing and dancing. And don't forget the Musical Influence bard skills, and the various Songs that have been created for DF.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Oh, and another note about wizards and sorcerers: They are mages and can learn spells the "normal" way. Which in the case of wizards is highly recommended so that they don't have to waste their precious spell slots on all the prerequisites - they only have to use them for their "high-level spells".

I do this, and in addition, for a lot of the 4th level and higher spells, I also create the spell as a Power.

Making use of Alternate Attacks and the Single-Use (1/5 CP) modifiers, a very expensive and powerful spell can be memorised as a Modular Ability for a modest cost, cast once and then forgotten until rememorised. Very much in line with the source material.